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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

  1. #2531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Yeah, sure. He'll probably find a way to argue Reich is wrong. I mean, in his latest blog entry, he used Scarlet Johansson, half Danish half Ashkenazi, as an example of how the typical Ashkenazi Jew look like (with his end point being that this somehow proves they have nothing to do with the Levant). This reduces the level of his arguments to theapricity levels, honestly.
    How can he be so hilariously incompetent? How hard could it be for a scholar to check a celebrity's ancestry on Wikipedia?
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  3. #2532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    How can he be so hilariously incompetent? How hard could it be for a scholar to check a celebrity's ancestry on Wikipedia?
    I don't know, but there, judge for yourself:

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  5. #2533
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    Lol, has Elhaik ever looked at himself in the mirror? Does he really think a probably Nogai-like population is more likely to be the source of Ashkenazi phenotypes than a primarily East Mediterranean-Levantine combination? That Oded Fehr sure is a Turkic-looking dude, isn't he? Talk about delusional.
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  7. #2534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Lol, has Elhaik ever looked at himself in the mirror? Does he really think a probably Nogai-like population is more likely to be the source of Ashkenazi phenotypes than a primarily East Mediterranean-Levantine combination? That Oded Fehr sure is a Turkic-looking dude, isn't he? Talk about delusional.
    Lol, but as I said, he nowadays believe that he's of Irano-Slavo-Turko (whatever that means) descent, with a pinch of Khazar (so Nogai-like) and very, very low Levantine admixture (about 0-3%). He also recently been "open" to the possibility of South European admixture in the form of Greek ancestry - but get this - from Pontic Greeks (which do not plot like South Europeans) .

    Accordingly, our dear "home linguist" Dr. Wexler now changed his mind in recent years about the Slavic (Sorbian was it?) origin of Yiddish and it's alleged "relexification" into a West Germanic language, and now claims it was originally an Irano-Slavic (!) language . I mean - hallelujah guys ! We now have a whole new Indo-European linguistic branch no one has ever found any evidence for it's existence .

    And last but not least, the more creative member of our beloved "Jews-are-everything-but-descended-from-ancient-Judeans" trio, Shlomo Sand , who has recently published a whole new fictional history-crime novel about the murder of a scientist who managed to prove Jews are Khazars by evil Zionist agents whoop-de-doo-di-doo .

    In an interview, he kind of admitted he based his story on the death of Arthur Koestler, author of the 1970s "The 13th Tribe", taken by the Khazar theorists as their modern prophet (even though his intentions were actually good). Apparently, Sand tries to imply his death was a conspiracy? I don't even know anymore.

    This is just... just too much "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" for me to be honest.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 06-06-2019 at 05:50 PM.
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  9. #2535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    It's unlikely that he did. There's very little chance that Khazars will be similar to Mongolians. I'm guessing they'll turn out more or less like the Nogais who live in that region still.

    But even so, it's hard to see how Elhaik could spin that to his advantage, although I guess he'll do his best whatever happens.
    Odds are he'll do what he does best: Promote his pet theory despite the genomic data.

    We've already seen something similar with the Wang et al. preprint where they went as far as to claim that "the Caucasus mountains served not only as a corridor for the spread of CHG/Neolithic Iranian ancestry but also for later gene-flow from the south also has a bearing on the postulated homelands of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages" even though it was extremely clear that the data indicated the exact opposite. The drive here was to promote a "southern"/Transcaucasian homeland for PIE, funny how we hear less and less about this all of a sudden right?

    Biased authors generally do not allow themselves to be confused by the data when they invalidate their theories, the conclusion is pre-determined, and that's exactly what we should expect. He has an agenda to promote, and he won't let ancient DNA get in the way of this agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Accordingly, our dear "home linguist" Dr. Wexler now changed his mind in recent years about the Slavic (Sorbian was it?) origin of Yiddish and it's alleged "relexification" into a West Germanic language, and now claims it was originally an Irano-Slavic (!) language . I mean - hallelujah guys ! We now have a whole new Indo-European linguistic branch no one has ever found any evidence for it's existence .
    Keep in mind that Wexler also claims that Modern Hebrew is "relexified Yiddish"... And since Yiddish is "Irano-Slavic", that ultimately makes MH "relexified Irano-Slavic". It all makes sense to him, believe it or not. The anti-Israel crowd is also very fond of him, I've said this before but they basically vandalised the MH page on Wikipedia by messing with the classification section, Wexler was used as the primary source (along with Ghil'ad Zuckermann), so you had a situation where Modern Hebrew was described as a "mixed language/relexified Yiddish" for more than a year until yours truly decided to fix this mess by providing sources they couldn't argue with.

    So yeah, the search for knowledge and factual accuracy isn't what drives these theories. This is all politically-motivated (and I'm being nice).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-06-2019 at 06:02 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
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    from https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post573223
    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/657247v1

    Neanderthal-Denisovan ancestors interbred with a distantly-related hominin

    Neanderthals and Denisovans interbred with their own Eurasian predecessors—members of a “superarchaic” population that separated from other humans about 2 mya. The superarchaic population was large, with an effective size between 10 and 46 thousand individuals
    Remember this story? I don't believe these archaeologists are dishonest or quacks. I believe there were "humans" in the New World 130kya.... but these were archaic hominids, not sapiens.

    Question: since Papuans have much more Denisovan admixture than other modern humans (~6% vs <1% in East Asians) what are the odds that the faint "Population Y" (Papuan-like) signature in Amazonian Indians is actually a hint of these 130kya mastodon hunters.... they could have been a hybridized Erectus-Denisovan population, and the Denisovan admixture is what's drawing Karitiana etc closer to Papuans???

    I think the consensus is that all Amerindians have Neanderthal ancestry, but totally lack Denisovan ancestry? Has this hypothesis been tested extensively with formal stats?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    We've already seen something similar with the Wang et al. preprint where they went as far as to claim that "the Caucasus mountains served not only as a corridor for the spread of CHG/Neolithic Iranian ancestry but also for later gene-flow from the south also has a bearing on the postulated homelands of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages" even though it was extremely clear that the data indicated the exact opposite. The drive here was to promote a "southern"/Transcaucasian homeland for PIE, funny how we hear less and less about this all of a sudden right?
    I don't get what the point you are trying to make is. I think that you may be not happy with the description of CHG/Iran admixture that makes up ~30% of Steppe?
    Fact is that this component of Steppe is simply Iran/CHG admixture. You can easily build your own Steppe replacement in admixture runs via e.g Maykop_Novo and one of the two-way neolithic/chalcolithic Balkan sample of ANF-EHG.
    So certainly there was a flow at some time, be it mesolithic, neolithic or chalcolithic. We just don't know how yet and know that Maykop was not responsible for it (expect outliers).

  14. #2538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    I don't get what the point you are trying to make is. I think that you may be not happy with the description of CHG/Iran admixture that makes up ~30% of Steppe?
    Fact is that this component of Steppe is simply Iran/CHG admixture. You can easily build your own Steppe replacement in admixture runs via e.g Maykop_Novo and one of the two-way neolithic/chalcolithic Balkan sample of ANF-EHG.
    So certainly there was a flow at some time, be it mesolithic, neolithic or chalcolithic. We just don't know how yet and know that Maykop was not responsible for it (expect outliers).
    The point I'm making is relatively simple: In the Wang et al. preprint, the authors made a claim that contradicts the data they reported.

    The reason they did this was to promote an alternative IE homeland south of the Caucasus, since such models invariably use the Pontic-Caspian steppe as a "secondary" homeland, some kind of gene flow from the south Caucasus to the steppe is necessary to make this scenario plausible. Hence why they described the Caucasus mountains as a "corridor". The ancient genetic data however strongly indicated (1) that the Caucasus was largely a genetic sink starting from the Chalcolithic as opposed to a source which is clear judging from the arrival of distinctive populations from the south especially with Kura-Araxes and (2) that the Caucasus was a hermetic barrier allowing minimal gene flow which separated those living on the northern and southern flanks into two distinct population clusters bridged only by a few outliers, this is especially visible when looking at the Maykop samples which are basically divided between the Steppe and Caucasus clusters (with Steppe Maykop having distinctive Botai-like or WSHG-type ancestry).

    Keep in mind that the Maykop culture was often invoked as the best archeological correlate for a non-steppe IE homeland. Even though you insist that we don't know whether Maykop was responsible for gene flow, what we can say so far is that Maykop makes a very poor contender for the IE homeland. And that's just going off the genetic data. I'm not even considering the linguistic aspect, which is much more crucial.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-06-2019 at 07:09 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
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  16. #2539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The point I'm making is relatively simple: In the Wang et al. preprint, the authors made a claim that contradicts the data they reported.

    The reason they did this was to promote an alternative IE homeland south of the Caucasus, since such models invariably use the Pontic-Caspian steppe as a "secondary" homeland, some kind of gene flow from the south Caucasus to the steppe is necessary to make this scenario plausible. Hence why they described the Caucasus mountains as a "corridor". The ancient genetic data however strongly indicated (1) that the Caucasus was largely a genetic sink starting from the Chalcolithic as opposed to a source which is clear judging from the arrival of distinctive populations from the south especially with Kura-Araxes and (2) that the Caucasus was a hermetic barrier allowing minimal gene flow which separated those living on the northern and southern flanks into two distinct population clusters bridged only by a few outliers, this is especially visible when looking at the Maykop samples which are basically divided between the Steppe and Caucasus clusters (with Steppe Maykop having distinctive Botai-like or WSHG-type ancestry).

    Keep in mind that the Maykop culture was often invoked as the best archeological correlate for a non-steppe IE homeland. Even though you insist that we don't know whether Maykop was responsible for gene flow, what we can say so far is that Maykop makes a very poor contender for the IE homeland. And that's just going off the genetic data. I'm not even considering the linguistic aspect, which is much more crucial.
    That is all good but it does not change the fact that the statement of Wang is true: The Caucasus was the corridor for Iran/CHG admixture into the PS-Steppe. Maykop was not responsible from the data, true, but there is no reason to think they had a biased agenda.
    There is no doubt that the 30% of Iran/CHG admixture that makes up Steppe is from south of the Caucasus and practically identical to other Iran/CHG admixture.
    Nothing more, nothing less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Lol, has Elhaik ever looked at himself in the mirror? Does he really think a probably Nogai-like population is more likely to be the source of Ashkenazi phenotypes than a primarily East Mediterranean-Levantine combination? That Oded Fehr sure is a Turkic-looking dude, isn't he? Talk about delusional.
    I might be wrong, but I don't think Elhaik is Ashkenazi. His name seems to be Moroccan, but I always thought he also had Yemenite roots.

    Either way, I 100% agree. There are countless Ashkenazim who look identical to modern Levantines. And even those with more European features look more like West European/Levantine hybrids than any Central Asian or Northern Causasus population.

    I always interpreted his obsession with proving that Ashkenazi Jews aren't Levantine as some sort of resentment toward "the man" within the context of Israeli society, but not self loathing.

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