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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    The Erzurum Turks in general have very little to no Turkic ancestry and are overwhelmingly descended from the local Armenians.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...pbY/edit#gid=0

    As for the Kars Turks, since they are mostly recent Azeri immigrants, they cannot represent the local gene pool anyway.
    Which part of Turkey has the most true Turkic ancestry? By that I mean Oghuz type Turkic ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rozenfeld View Post
    Again about this paper with Armenian DNA. I recently found a video of a lecture given by one of the authors of this preprint, Levon Yepiskoposyan, in November 2019, in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blPx...ture=emb_title

    Factual wise it has nothing new, but it may give an idea about how Armenian scientists(or at least Yepiskoposyan) think about all these things. My impression is that Yepiskoposyan firmly believes that Armenians were isolated in Armenian highlands for last 4000 years. Some things I noticed in his presentation:
    Yes, it seems at least Yepiskoposyan has that belief, which is refuted by the ancient genomes we have, at least for the territory of the Republic of Armenia. Claiming 4000 (or more) years of genetic continuity is one thing, claiming 4000 years of genetic isolation is another, I guess not many people would object to the former.

    31:40 Here he uses Uyghurs as a typical Turkic population to estimate genetic input of Turkic populations into Armenians. That's a weird choice, since Uyghurs have tons of pre-Turkic genetic ancestry. Also, on that paper he wrote Atrpatakan instead of Azerbaijan.
    Yes, certainly the methodology of that analysis is flawed. If we are to take it as a measure of Turkic ancestry, we should claim non-negligible Turkic ancestry even in Poles and Serbians, which is not the case in reality. Of course it is not a measure of Turkic ancestry, and it is based on the Y-DNA data while they could use the more reliable genome-wide data.

    42:10 Wrong map, I mean this map would make sense in 2010, but not in 2019, Also afterwards he talks about ancient DNA, but nothing new.
    Yes, also the mtDNA PCA he shares is very much unlike any I have seen. Here is a typical mtDNA PCA involving the Armenians:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1J2H...ew?usp=sharing

    Anyway, in 2019 he is still showing population genetic distances based solely on Y-DNA- and mtDNA-based analyses! No where in his presentation he shares genome-wide genetic distances or PCAs. His interpretation of the ADMIXTURE components is also very problematic.

    He also seems to neglect the fact that most of Anatolia (i.e., the West Asian territories west of the Armenian Highlands (Greater Armenia) and the Euphrates and north of the Greater Syria) was Greek-speaking Orthodox rather than Armenian-speaking Gregorian before the spread of Islam and the Turkish language, even in the Cappadocian and Pontian parts.

    He is of course right in stating that the modern Armenians show almost no Mongolian, Turkic or Islamic Arabian admixture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Which part of Turkey has the most true Turkic ancestry? By that I mean Oghuz type Turkic ancestry.
    Well, that spreadsheet I linked to can give you an idea as it shows not just the province names, but also their regions. In addition, it shows the sum of the East Eurasian component percentages of the individuals, which you should focus on for discerning the ratios of Turkic ancestry.
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  7. #3504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    Yes, it seems at least Yepiskoposyan has that belief, which is refuted by the ancient genomes we have, at least for the territory of the Republic of Armenia. Claiming 4000 (or more) years of genetic continuity is one thing, claiming 4000 years of genetic isolation is another, I guess not many people would object to the former.



    Yes, certainly the methodology of that analysis is flawed. If we are to take it as a measure of Turkic ancestry, we should claim non-negligible Turkic ancestry even in Poles and Serbians, which is not the case in reality. Of course it is not a measure of Turkic ancestry, and it is based on the Y-DNA data while they could use the more reliable genome-wide data.



    Yes, also the mtDNA PCA he shares is very much unlike any I have seen. Here is a typical mtDNA PCA involving the Armenians:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1J2H...ew?usp=sharing

    Anyway, in 2019 he is still showing population genetic distances based solely on Y-DNA- and mtDNA-based analyses! No where in his presentation he shares genome-wide genetic distances or PCAs. His interpretation of the ADMIXTURE components is also very problematic.

    He also seems to neglect the fact that most of Anatolia (i.e., the West Asian territories west of the Armenian Highlands (Greater Armenia) and the Euphrates and north of the Greater Syria) was Greek-speaking Orthodox rather than Armenian-speaking Gregorian before the spread of Islam and the Turkish language, even in the Cappadocian and Pontian parts.

    He is of course right in stating that the modern Armenians show almost no Mongolian, Turkic or Islamic Arabian admixture.
    Is it possible that those BA samples pulled from modern-day Armenia were simply not Armenian to begin with? Possible refugees or migrants?

    The reason I ask is because the Chalcolithic Areni sample and especially the N Caucasus Lowlands sample shows a very strong affinity to Armenians today and these samples predate the BA samples.

    I'm just saying that it is possible that they weren't Armenian to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountain View Post
    Thank you. I Will look at the spreadsheet tomorrow. But the Erzurum Turkish samples on G25 seem to be diverse? One of them is closest to Kurds, one closest to Azeri and another closest to Hemsheni?
    It contains a couple of outliers. One of them is very close to Azeri_Dagestan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    The Erzurum Turks in general have very little to no Turkic ancestry and are overwhelmingly descended from the local Armenians.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...pbY/edit#gid=0

    As for the Kars Turks, since they are mostly recent Azeri immigrants, they cannot represent the local gene pool anyway.
    I think many regions from Turkish Kurdistan have assilimated armeno-assyrians in their gene pool.Ofc the regions are untested but provinces like Batman, Bitlis, Siirt,Van,Igdir have been traditional armeno-assyrian with a decent also Pontic Greek settlement.What happeend to all of them?Do you really think they died in the genocides?Ofc not.Many of them have islamicized.I am pretty sure many individuals even with current Kurdish heritage will have results similar to modern armenians,assyrians,pontic greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NarLFC View Post
    Is it possible that those BA samples pulled from modern-day Armenia were simply not Armenian to begin with? Possible refugees or migrants?

    The reason I ask is because the Chalcolithic Areni sample and especially the N Caucasus Lowlands sample shows a very strong affinity to Armenians today and these samples predate the BA samples.

    I'm just saying that it is possible that they weren't Armenian to begin with.
    Here are the results of the population averages of the ancient genomes from what is now Armenia and the modern Armenian average based on my Northern Mediterranean-focused Global 25-based Vahaduo analysis:

    2020-06-25 14_07_43-VahaduoJS 19.11.2 - Comodo Dragon.png

    Following Davidski, I used the AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN ancient genomes to represent the Late Neolithic of Armenia. The Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent ancient genomes are from Dagestan rather than Armenia, so their high steppe compared to the Kura-Araxes ancient genomes from Armenia should not be so surprising.

    What is striking is the significant increases and decreases in the steppe ancestry in the transitions to the various periods: the transitions to the Chalcolithic and MLBA for the increases and the transitions to the EBA (Kura-Araxes) and post-MLBA (Iron Age?) for the decreases. Despite their small steppe ancestry, modern Armenians are not genetically so similar to the Kura-Araxes because of the higher CHG and lower Levant Neolithic ancestries in the Kura-Araxes. Modern Armenians in fact genetically seem like a little steppe-admixed version of the Late Neolithic population of the Caucasus lowlands, but such a simple interpretation would require us to ignore the comparatively genetically distant Chalcolithic and Bronze Age populations of what is now Armenia. So yes, what is now Armenia experienced significant genetic changes from the Neolithic times until the Iron Age times at the earliest. I think the modern Armenian gene pool formed essentially in what is now eastern Turkey rather than what is now Armenia, this interpretation is strongly backed by history too. Hopefully, with increasing ancient genomes from eastern Turkey, the question of Armenian ethnogenesis will be resolved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I think many regions from Turkish Kurdistan have assilimated armeno-assyrians in their gene pool.Ofc the regions are untested but provinces like Batman, Bitlis, Siirt,Van,Igdir have been traditional armeno-assyrian with a decent also Pontic Greek settlement.What happeend to all of them?Do you really think they died in the genocides?Ofc not.Many of them have islamicized.I am pretty sure many individuals even with current Kurdish heritage will have results similar to modern armenians,assyrians,pontic greeks.
    Assyrians may have left minor traces in the very southern regions like Hakkari.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NarLFC View Post
    Assyrians may have left minor traces in the very southern regions like Hakkari.
    Yes Mardin,Sirnak as well.

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    Diyarbakır as well many people there have definitely Crypto-ArmenoAssyrian roots.

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