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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    More rule than exception: Parallel evidence of ancient migrations in grammars and genomes of Finno-Ugric speakers
    Patricia Santos, Gloria Gonzalez-Fortes, Emiliano Trucchi, Andrea Ceolin, Guido Cordoni, Cristina Guardiano, Giuseppe Longobardi, Guido Barbujani

    This article is a damn joke lol

    Are they seriously argueing that Uralic originated with the Yamnaya and that the Indo-European steppe pastoralists got their language from their 10% EEF ancestry?

    Do they got lead in the water down in Rome or what?
    To begin with in Sredni Stog ( the most likely homeland ) the EEF component is quite bigger than in Yamnaya but that is not an issue for now. As far as I'm concerned however the most important information it is not if Yamnaya was or was not uralic speaking . I do not give s+++ about that.
    The most important issue for me is the question of proto uralic originating in the Volga basin around 5000 years ago. If true that means that as I said earlier we have in eastern europe two kind of EHG
    the ANE ( Afontonova Gora) shifted EHG were the proto uralic
    THE WHG ( Villabruna- Iron Gates) shifted EHG of the Pontic steppe were the PIE
    The EEF is not supported by genetics AFAICS.
    THat is supported also by the Fatyanovo paper

    EcHj373U8AAYT91.png
    Last edited by etrusco; 11-03-2020 at 03:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    To begin with in Sredni Stog ( the most likely homeland ) the EEF component is quite bigger than in Yamnaya but that is not an issue for now. As far as I'm concerned however the most important information it is not if Yamnaya was or was not uralic speaking . I do not give s+++ about that.
    The most important issue for me is the question of proto uralic originating in the Volga basin around 5000 years ago. If true that means that as I said earlier we have in eastern europe two kind of EHG
    the ANE ( Afontonova Gora) shifted EHG were the proto uralic
    THE WHG ( Villabruna- Iron Gates) EHG shifted were the PIE
    The EEF is not supported by genetics AFAICS.
    THat is supported also by the Fatyanovo paper

    EcHj373U8AAYT91.png
    We have less than a handful of Sredny Stog associated genomes and the earliest CWC samples were basically identical to Yamnaya, so for all we know they might be outliers of their respective population. I don't think we can definitively make statements about EEF ancestry in the PIE homeland like that.

    Uralic speaking EHGs is just one of those fantasy theory that make no sense when looking at the details of both the linguistic and genetic arguments.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 11-03-2020 at 04:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    More rule than exception: Parallel evidence of ancient migrations in grammars and genomes of Finno-Ugric speakers
    Patricia Santos, Gloria Gonzalez-Fortes, Emiliano Trucchi, Andrea Ceolin, Guido Cordoni, Cristina Guardiano, Giuseppe Longobardi, Guido Barbujani

    This article is a damn joke lol

    Are they seriously argueing that Uralic originated with the Yamnaya and that the Indo-European steppe pastoralists got their language from their 10% EEF ancestry?

    Do they got lead in the water down in Rome or what?
    What nonsense is published in scientific journals. I assume this article was written by Carlos Q ))

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    What nonsense is published in scientific journals. I assume this article was written by Carlos Q ))
    https://genomebiology.biomedcentral....059-018-1522-1

    This is a 2018 article. It seems it deals with the same argument. I do not have nor the time nor the knowledge to go deep in it. Perhaps who knows better could see how the two papers relate with each other and if they come to the same conclusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    We have less than a handful of Sredny Stog associated genomes and the earliest CWC samples were basically identical to Yamnaya, so for all we know they might be outliers of their respective population. I don't think we can definitively make statements about EEF ancestry in the PIE homeland like that.

    Uralic speaking EHGs is just one of those fantasy theory that make no sense when looking at the details of both the linguistic and genetic arguments.
    It is not EHG= Uralic. That is not what I wrote. It would be more like Afontonova Gora= Uralic.
    EHG were europeans
    Afontonova Gora is siberian dna. Even tough it remains by and large a western eurasian genetic cluster

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    Quote Originally Posted by jose luis View Post
    The paper "Y Chromosome Sequences Reveal a Short Beringian Standstill, Rapid Expansion, and early Population structure of Native American Founders" has always seemed to me a paradigm in these matters and even after being excluded from references in the paper by leading authors "The genomic formation of First American ancestors in East and Northeast Asia" I see it referred to in the later paper" Archaeogenomic Distinctiveness of the Isthmo-Colombian Area" and in fact it was the first to emerge the three migrations. Why this exclusion?
    I am not sure about your question, but one reason why it is not mentioned in "The genomic formation of First American ancestors in East and Northeast Asia" could be that "The genomic formation of First American ancestors in East and Northeast Asia" proposes a different model for the settlement of Americas. They argue against a simple and unitary Beringian standstill model and a rapid expansion to America. Instead they claim that groups with a different ancestry combination formed already in Asia and reached Beringia/Alaska independently.

    "Using a new admixture graph model-comparison approach resistant to overfitting, we show that Ancient Beringians do not form the deepest American lineage, but instead harbor ancestry from a lineage more closely related to northern North Americans than to southern North Americans. Ancient Beringians also harbor substantial admixture from a lineage that did not contribute to other Native Americans: Amur River Basin populations represented by a newly reported site in northeastern China."

    "We hypothesize that SNA ancestors were the first to move to Beringia towards the end of the isolation period, NNA ancestors were the second, and ancestors of Ancient Beringians (an NNA sub-group) were the last to migrate into North America, and thus interacted more with the ARB group ancestors spreading from other refugia at the same time."

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    Keezhadi excavation/ Reich lab Harvard - ancient DNA study status?

    Keezhadi excavation: MKU, Harvard University to collaborate in DNA study
    State Department of Archaeology will enter into a tripartite memorandum of understanding with Madurai Kamaraj University and Harvard Medical School to take up ancient DNA study of human bones excavated or to be excavated from Keeladi, Konthagai and Adichanallur sites in Tamil Nadu.

    Principal Secretary/Commissioner of Department of Archaeology T. Udhyachandran said that a tripartite MoU would be signed among the Department of Archaeology, MKU and David Reich Laboratory of Harvard Medial School to carry out the study.

    Carbon dating of artefacts collected during the fourth season of excavation at Keeladi done at Beta Analytic Lab, Miami, USA, has revealed that urbanisation of Vaigai plains had happened in Tamil Nadu around the 6th century BCE as happened in Gangetic plains.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keezhadi_excavation_site

    Any news on the status of this?
    YFull: YF14620 (Dante Labs 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    To begin with in Sredni Stog ( the most likely homeland ) the EEF component is quite bigger than in Yamnaya but that is not an issue for now. As far as I'm concerned however the most important information it is not if Yamnaya was or was not uralic speaking . I do not give s+++ about that.
    The most important issue for me is the question of proto uralic originating in the Volga basin around 5000 years ago. If true that means that as I said earlier we have in eastern europe two kind of EHG
    the ANE ( Afontonova Gora) shifted EHG were the proto uralic
    THE WHG ( Villabruna- Iron Gates) shifted EHG of the Pontic steppe were the PIE
    The EEF is not supported by genetics AFAICS.
    THat is supported also by the Fatyanovo paper

    EcHj373U8AAYT91.png
    Among the WHG rich groups I forgot to mention perhaps the most important ones: Narva and Kund) in the eastern Baltic. I do not remember exactly but one of the two ( or both) had a R1b P297 sample. These eastern baltic foragers (of swiderian origin) seem to have had an influence on the Dneper Donets foragers ( archaic PIE).

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    I would like to comment that the new paper "More rule than exception: Parallel evidence of ancient migrations in grammars and genomes of Finno-Ugric speakers" compares syntactic similarities/differences between 1. some IE languages (without the most divergent Tocharian, Armenian and Hittite languages), 2. some Uralic languages (in which Khanty is indeed very divergent) and 3. Buryat (Mongolic), Evenk and Even (Tungusic) and Uzbek, Yakut, Kirghiz, Turkish, Kazakh (Turkic) without any Macro-Altaic languages such as Korean and Japanese.

    All language families included in the analysis started spreading during and after the Bronze Age, i.e. they are all quite modern. If the analysis had included Paleo-Siberian languages or Japanese and Korean, IE-languages, Uralic languages and Micro-Altaic languages would be closer to each other and diverge clearly from the Paleo-Siberian pre-Bronze Age languages and geographically very distant Japanese and Korean languages. All language families that spread during and after the Bronze Age were already genetically mixed. IMO, it is very simplistic to argue that one 10-20 kya old genetic component equals one language family that is thousands of years younger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    https://genomebiology.biomedcentral....059-018-1522-1

    This is a 2018 article. It seems it deals with the same argument. I do not have nor the time nor the knowledge to go deep in it. Perhaps who knows better could see how the two papers relate with each other and if they come to the same conclusion.
    This article is quite different. This is a serious investigation and there are no absurd claims that the Yamnaya population was Fino-speaking

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