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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

  1. #5231
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    Koksijde is located on the Belgian coast and in the late 3rd century it was part of the Litus Saxonicum (the Saxon Shore). Wikipedia:

    “Two interpretations were put forward as to the meaning of the adjective "Saxon": either a shore attacked by Saxons, or a shore settled by Saxons. Some argue that the latter hypothesis is supported by Eutropius, who states that during the 280s the sea along the coasts of Belgica and Armorica was "infested with Franks and Saxons", and that this was why Carausius was first put in charge of the fleet there.[2] However, Eutropius refers to Franks and Saxons as seaborne invaders. It also receives at least partial support from archaeological finds, as artefacts of a Germanic style have been found in burials, while there is evidence of the presence of Saxons (mostly laeti Roman army recruits though) in some numbers in SE England and the northern coasts of Gaul around Boulogne-sur-Mer and Bayeux from the middle of the 5th century onwards.[3]”

    The Belgian research seems to support “a shore settled by Saxons”. However, the merovingians of Koksijde lived 400 years after the first mentioning of Saxon invaders. Hopefully, the paper - for which we have to wait at least half a year- will shed more lights on their ancestors.
    “Frisch weht der wind, der Heimat zu, Mein Irisch Kind, Wo weilest du?”

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  3. #5232
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGPF View Post
    The Belgian research seems to support “a shore settled by Saxons”. However, the merovingians of Koksijde lived 400 years after the first mentioning of Saxon invaders. Hopefully, the paper - for which we have to wait at least half a year- will shed more lights on their ancestors.
    Nothing very strange, to my point of view.

    Outside the "Litus Saxonicum" question (debated: did some Saxons settled already in the IVth century, or not?), we already know that Saxons settled massively in Boulonnais (where their dialect was still spoken in the XVth century), and that they came by sea.
    https://www.raco.cat/index.php/Diale.../274777/362797

    Given what looked like the shore at this time, seeing Saxon in the costal Flanders is not surprising:
    http://scotflandredunkerque.fr/wp-co...COMPLET-BD.pdf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_transgression
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkir...ry.250.500.jpg

    Koksijde was probably an island at that time.
    Saxons moved from island to island from the Jutland to Normandy (look at Vron for another Merovingian cemetery with Anglo-saxons:.https://www.persee.fr/doc/pica_0752-...9_num_1_1_3155
    Last edited by ffoucart; 12-10-2021 at 01:26 PM.

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  5. #5233
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Nothing very strange, to my point of view.

    Outside the "Litus Saxonicum" question (debated: did some Saxons settled already in the IVth century, or not?), we already know that Saxons settled massively in Boulonnais (where their dialect was still spoken in the XVth century), and that they came by sea.
    https://www.raco.cat/index.php/Diale.../274777/362797


    Given what looked like the shore at this time, seeing Saxon in the costal Flanders is not surprising:
    http://scotflandredunkerque.fr/wp-co...COMPLET-BD.pdf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_transgression
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkir...ry.250.500.jpg

    Koksijde was probably an island at that time.
    Saxons moved from island to island from the Jutland to Normandy (look at Vron for another Merovingian cemetery with Anglo-saxons:.https://www.persee.fr/doc/pica_0752-...9_num_1_1_3155
    Nice finds!
    It's possible that Saxon is an umbrella tribal name, a kind of North Sea Germanic amalgam, gathered behind a warlord. According to the pottery this is the spread:

    According to present opinion, the Anglo‐Saxon style was not introduced in every region at the same time and also remained in use longer in some areas than in others. Although the quantity of data is not large, the results are in line with this idea. The pots from Germany are only in the early style, which is commensurate with the idea that the Anglo‐Saxon style went out of use earlier in this region. Usable dates from Denmark are not available. In the northern Netherlands, both earlier and later ASSP occurs. Archaeological data show that the style was introduced and adopted here in the 4th century. Most dated pots from England are of the later types, but one pot is of an early type. Although the central and western Netherlands are not well represented in the sample, it is clear that only the later ASSP and intermediate types between ASSP and HS are found here. Dates from northern France are lacking and only one date from a G7‐pot is available for Belgium, but here only the later ASSP‐types are found. This indirectly confirms that the Anglo‐Saxon style only occurred later in these regions. The results provide the necessary information for further stylistic analysis, comparing pottery from different regions.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...YPO-CHRONOLOGY

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  7. #5234
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGPF View Post
    Koksijde is located on the Belgian coast and in the late 3rd century it was part of the Litus Saxonicum (the Saxon Shore). Wikipedia:

    “Two interpretations were put forward as to the meaning of the adjective "Saxon": either a shore attacked by Saxons, or a shore settled by Saxons. Some argue that the latter hypothesis is supported by Eutropius, who states that during the 280s the sea along the coasts of Belgica and Armorica was "infested with Franks and Saxons", and that this was why Carausius was first put in charge of the fleet there.[2] However, Eutropius refers to Franks and Saxons as seaborne invaders. It also receives at least partial support from archaeological finds, as artefacts of a Germanic style have been found in burials, while there is evidence of the presence of Saxons (mostly laeti Roman army recruits though) in some numbers in SE England and the northern coasts of Gaul around Boulogne-sur-Mer and Bayeux from the middle of the 5th century onwards.[3]”

    The Belgian research seems to support “a shore settled by Saxons”. However, the merovingians of Koksijde lived 400 years after the first mentioning of Saxon invaders. Hopefully, the paper - for which we have to wait at least half a year- will shed more lights on their ancestors.
    I don't know if the Merovingian warlords came from NW Germany, is Salland still in the picture as place of origin?

    See also:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovech
    Last edited by Finn; 12-10-2021 at 05:46 PM.

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  9. #5235
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGPF View Post
    The researchers concluded that the Belgian merovingians are more closely related to Saxons than to other populations. It may have been immigrants from the Saxon territories in the north.
    If haven't seen the dataset yet, but there should be analysis of Y-DNA.

    PS: the paper will be submitted in June 2022
    Can't wait until june 2022 until Larmuseau reveals the samples.

    When the Merovingians come from the Lower Rhine region/ Salland, we may be can compare them to the Nijmegen IA samples, they more 'northern' than even the Saxon samples indeed. One more NW wards the other more NE wards though.

    Fo what it's worth...


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  11. #5236
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  13. #5237
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    The big difference seems to be that the nowadays Dutch are much closer to the Germanic groups......


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  15. #5238
    On the contrary, this study also states the following:

    'Yet, it seems too early to conclude which human species –H. sapiens, Denisovans, or other unknown archaic hominins [82.] – was the first to physiologically achieve adaptation in the high-altitude environment. The presence of the high-altitude-adaptive EPAS1 haplotype in a single Denisovan reference genome does not inform on its frequency in Denisovan populations, nor does it speak to its biological function at the species level.'

    Because, in the previous study by one of the same authors, they have found the following:

    '...We used the program SLiM 3.2.0 (48) to simulate forward in time the evolution of a 100-kb genomic segment representing the EPAS1 gene under a human demographic model that considers three populations (Denisovans, Tibetans and an outgroup population; see model A in SI Appendix, Fig. S7)...
    ...In Model A (results shown in the main text), at 16,000 generations ago, the population split into an archaic population (Denisovans) and the ancestral modern human population...
    ...We convert times to year units by assuming that one generation is 25 y...'

    '..This is likely due to the fact that (African) Yorubans carry a small number of the archaic alleles in the EPAS1 region (23, 32)... Therefore, the most parsimonious explanation is shared ancestry with archaic humans...

    That is, African Yorubans also have archaic alleles in the EPAS1 region, and the separation of the genomic segment representing the EPAS1 gene into 'ancestral modern human population' and 'Denisovans' occured approximately 16000x25=400000 years ago, which is later than the usual age of separation of modern humans and Denisovans. Interestingly, the known comprehensive craniological study showed the existence of the ancient human population, whose cranial features separated from modern humans 417000 years ago, which is quite close to the timing of the separation in the EPAS1 region from modern humans.

    '..This is likely due to the fact that (African) Yorubans carry a small number of the archaic alleles in the EPAS1 region (23, 32)... Therefore, the most parsimonious explanation is shared ancestry with archaic humans...

    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Denisovans and Homo sapiens on the Tibetan Plateau: dispersals and adaptations

    “ After the period of Denisovans, acknowledging current data limitations, it is worth noting that the archaeological and genetic evidence converge on a scenario of human dispersal. The sudden occurrence of blade technology at Nwya Devu (40–30 ka) points toward a potential connection with the Initial Upper Paleolithic (IUP) dated to 48–40 ka in the eastern Steppe zone (including Central Asia, Siberian Altai, and North Mongolia) [34.,83.], which is contemporaneous with H. sapiens fossils in Siberia (45 ka) [84.] and the Denisovan EPAS1 introgression into East Asians (48–46 ka). IUP assemblages as the earliest systematic blade production widely found in the Siberian Altai and North Mongolia are usually perceived as evidence of early H. sapiens dispersal [28.,34.,85.] (Box 1). In addition, the human remains from Bacho-Kiro cave indicates that the H. sapiens inviduals produced the IUP stone tools and had genetic connections to present-day East Asians [86.,87.]. In lowland East Asia, blade assemblages are rare but a clear example of IUP assemblage is dated to 41–34 ka at the Shuiddongou site in North China [33.,88.,89.]. Collectively, the blade assemblages and the H. sapiens fossils, with the adaptive introgression from Denisovans, suggest a hypothetical but compelling scenario: H. sapiens arrived in the Siberian Altai near 48 ka, reached North Mongolia around 45 ka, and finally expanded to North China and the TP as early as 40 ka. Hunter-gatherers might have brought a form of blade technology along with the introgressed EPAS1 haplotype into East Asia. Connections between Steppe belt and East Asia might also be frequent in a later period, as Neolithic Tibetans are genetically closer to northern Neolithic East Asians and Siberians than to southern Neolithic groups [90.].”


    https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-...elatedArticles
    Last edited by Q-M242-is-Papuan-related; 12-11-2021 at 01:03 PM.

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  17. #5239
    Revisiting the Out of Africa event with a novel Deep Learning approach
    Francesco Montinaro, Vasili Pankratov, Burak Yelmen, Luca Pagani, Mayukh Mondal



    '...Indeed, the separation time between B2A (that is, AFR) and OOA populations corresponds to 67 (CI 66.3 - 67.6) kya, which is close to the estimate of TMRCA between Haplogroup E and D (72 kya 11)...'

    '...an admixture between AA and B2A (that is, AFR) 47.7 (CI 46.4 - 49.1) kya...' (or 60 kya, according to their alternative prediction in the text, which is prior to the separation of known E-M96 branches (they create the association of E-M96 with AFR/B2A population))

    '...Our AA represents Ghost modern 36...' (36. Lipson, M. et al. Ancient West African foragers in the context of African population history. Nature 577, 665–670 (2020).)
    Last edited by Q-M242-is-Papuan-related; 12-12-2021 at 09:58 AM.

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  19. #5240
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    I guess Iwo Eleru is a good candidate for an archaic admixture which Peaks in West Africa.

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