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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

  1. #5721
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Considering that one line by Herodotus contradicts his own story as well as that of other ancient historians, most historians do not think it was an accurate historical description but rather a folktale (possibly of Pontic Greek origin) to explain the mounds along the Dniester described by Herodotus in the same line.
    What about such ancient Cimmerian samples as Cim357,Cim358 and Cim359 found on the lands of modern Moldova in the upper reaches of the Dniester? These samples confirm that the Cimmerians lived along the Dniester before the Scythian invasion.
    And the proto-Scythians can be associated with the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát (Mezochat) Culture in the Northern Hungaria (for example, sample IR1).
    Last edited by Fried; 10-04-2022 at 08:05 PM.

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  3. #5722
    Quote Originally Posted by Fried View Post
    What about such ancient Cimmerian samples as Cim357,Cim358 and Cim359 found on the lands of modern Moldova in the upper reaches of the Dniester? These samples confirm that the Cimmerians lived along the Dniester before the Scythian invasion.
    How do you know they were actually Cimmerians?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fried View Post
    What about such ancient Cimmerian samples as Cim357,Cim358 and Cim359 found on the lands of modern Moldova in the upper reaches of the Dniester? These samples confirm that the Cimmerians lived along the Dniester before the Scythian invasion.
    This being a long established fact, that the Cimmerians lived on the steppe closer to Europe before the Scythians came. Its not just one source or discipline claiming so. However, contrary to some of the other people, the Cimmerians always remained kind of more elusive.

    Another interesting question is to which kind of people the Noua-Sabatinovka culture bearers belonged. The usual interpretation is Cimmerian or Iranian too.

  6. #5724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fried View Post
    What about such ancient Cimmerian samples as Cim357,Cim358 and Cim359 found on the lands of modern Moldova in the upper reaches of the Dniester? These samples confirm that the Cimmerians lived along the Dniester before the Scythian invasion.
    And the proto-Scythians can be associated with the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát (Mezochat) Culture in the Northern Hungaria.
    We have samples from Samsun of these nomadic Iranian peoples.These Amazons were not a fairytale or mythology as we thought.Some of them probably inhabit even parts of Pontus and Northeast Anatolia.

  7. #5725
    Quote Originally Posted by Avraam Kyriakidis View Post
    We have samples from Samsun of these nomadic Iranian peoples.These Amazons were not a fairytale or mythology as we thought.Some of them probably inhabit even parts of Pontus and Northeast Anatolia.
    The Samsun samples are Sarmatian auxiliaries or migrants. They have nothing to do with Amazons who show up in Greek mythos around the 8th century BC (or earlier).
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    The Samsun samples are Sarmatian auxiliaries or migrants. They have nothing to do with Amazons who show up in Greek mythos around the 8th century BC (or earlier).
    These samples from Samsun are def nomadic Iranians.Not sure if they were immigrants or something else but the Amazon myth did not come from nowhere.Pontus and northeast Anatolia and caucasus in general must had been a place were these nomadic travellers used to inhabit or moving around....and Ancient Greeks made up a myth with them or something similar.I don't think that Samsun was the capital of Amazons just by coincidental.What we can say for sure is they didn't left any genetic impact to the native populations there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Thanks for putting Wusun in quotations because they are just from the Saka-Wusun period and only one sample actually securely postdates the Wusun migration, one clearly predates it and the two others, to which DA220 belonged fall in timeframes that could either predate or postdate the Wusun migrations to the Ili valley. If memory serves well IR1 had P189.2 which was found in Botai, as well as a "Sarmatian" that has a clear late bronze age profile and wasn't securely dated.
    Yeah, I kind of recalled some discussion surrounding the "Wusun" samples. Might have been from your blog?

    N-Y6503 is divided into two subclades:

    N-FT324/P189: Found in Botai (BOT15), x2 Mereke_MBA (I11735 + I11737), Moldova BA/IA? (Individual 8 Harney et al.), probably the unreleased Elunin sample and at low frequencies in modern Europe (mainly Balkans) + x1 from Iraq on FTDNA.

    N-MF52704: found in Neolithic Cis-Baikal + Fofonovo (DA247 + FNO001), Munkhkhairkhan MLBA (I13173), Mongolia MLBA (I13768), Afontova Gora LBA (RISE554), Junmachanyilian IA (HRR579041), a single modern sample from Altai and IR1/DA220.

    BIY012 from Sargat is N-Y6503* but low-quality, IIRC.

    I am probably missing a few, but there is a visible difference in their distributions. If the current estimates are to be believed, these subclades split >12,000 ybp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    How do you know they were actually Cimmerians?
    They had to have been some sort of Indo-Iranics, I don't really know how else siberian DNA could've gotten so deep in Europe. We also have Ukrainian samples we deem "Cimmerian". 2 of which have East Eurasian admixture, but one of them has barely any and the other has not that much compared to the Moldovan Cimmerians. The Moldovan and Ukrainian samples alike are too genetically diverse in my opinion to be labeled as any common ethnic group

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyh View Post
    They had to have been some sort of Indo-Iranics, I don't really know how else siberian DNA could've gotten so deep in Europe. We also have Ukrainian samples we deem "Cimmerian". 2 of which have East Eurasian admixture, but one of them has barely any and the other has not that much compared to the Moldovan Cimmerians. The Moldovan and Ukrainian samples alike are too genetically diverse in my opinion to be labeled as any common ethnic group
    I think that characterises this kind of "Cimmerian movement" the best, the heterogeneous character, which sticks out against e.g. Noua-Sabatinovka or later Scythians even. They look like a mixed alliance from the start, similar to e.g. some early Hungarian sample groups. .

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  15. #5730
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    How do you know they were actually Cimmerians?
    Herodotus described in great detail the territories of Scythia from the Hister (Danube) to the Tanais (Don) and wrote that the Cimmerians occupied the same lands before the Scythian invasion. Thus the samples immediately preceding the Scythian culture in these lands (from the Danube to the Don river) most likely belong to the Cimmerians.

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