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Thread: Z251 (L21>DF13>Z251) and Subclades L555 & L583

  1. #11
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    Next time, I'll just copy and paste.

  2. #12
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    Another Z251+ this morning: Blair, kit 186657. Several Z251- results otherwise.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Another Z251+ this morning: Blair, kit 186657. Several Z251- results otherwise.
    Blair fits into a fairly strong (unusual) STR signature I've been calling 711. It'll now be 251-711 because they are all suspects. There is a Czech in the group.

    f83220 Armstrong zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
    f186657 Blair R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251+ Z251+ L144- z711125 zzCountry
    fN5199 Dew R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- 3c1g z711125 zzCountry
    f136561 Dvorak R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ z711125 Czech Rep
    f131104 Grandbois zzL21suspect z711125 France
    f211454 Kimmins zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
    f203836 Mahany zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
    f255219 McDonald R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- z711125 Scotland
    f103705 Waldron zzL21suspect z711125 England
    f24273 zzzUnknown R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41-
    L1335- L371- L555- L96- L144- L195- L130- 3c1g z711125 England

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Blair fits into a fairly strong (unusual) STR signature I've been calling 711. It'll now be 251-711 because they are all suspects. There is a Czech in the group.

    f83220 Armstrong zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
    f186657 Blair R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251+ Z251+ L144- z711125 zzCountry
    fN5199 Dew R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- 3c1g z711125 zzCountry
    f136561 Dvorak R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ z711125 Czech Rep
    f131104 Grandbois zzL21suspect z711125 France
    f211454 Kimmins zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
    f203836 Mahany zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
    f255219 McDonald R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- z711125 Scotland
    f103705 Waldron zzL21suspect z711125 England
    f24273 zzzUnknown R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41-
    L1335- L371- L555- L96- L144- L195- L130- 3c1g z711125 England
    When I get the chance, I'll email some of those guys, Dvorak included, and urge them to order Z251. I've got a big paper for a graduate statistics class to finish today. Once I get that out of the way, I'll have more time. (Still not sure how to apply what I have learned to haplotypes, even though I am carrying an "A" in the class.)

  5. #15
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    Duplicated
    Last edited by MJost; 04-28-2013 at 04:37 PM.
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    When I get the chance, I'll email some of those guys, Dvorak included, and urge them to order Z251. I've got a big paper for a graduate statistics class to finish today. Once I get that out of the way, I'll have more time. (Still not sure how to apply what I have learned to haplotypes, even though I am carrying an "A" in the class.)
    Does anyone know the paternal lineage for Dvorak? Seems like he is might be a migrant from the NW Europe. The -711 guys:

    IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age 422 ybp
    f136561 Dvorak
    f103705 Waldron
    f24273 zzzUnknown

    IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age 609 ybp
    f136561 Dvorak
    f103705 Waldron
    f24273 zzzUnknown
    f203836 Mahany
    f211454 Kimmins
    f83220 Armstrong
    f255219 McDonald


    Interesting.

    MJost
    Last edited by MJost; 04-28-2013 at 04:36 PM. Reason: corrected ages
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  7. #17
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    Look like a lot of work has to be done to get Z251 on the ISOGG tree although I don't think there is much doubt it belongs. The human genome project results don't qualify to support placement on the ISOGG Y haplotree.

    At least one person who is DF49+, one who is DF41+, one who is DF21+, one who is DF1+/L513+, one who is, etc., etc. has to be tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Reynolds
    Not I, too many irons in the fire already...

    Z251 is not included in Geno 2.0 and is not covered by any of the primers used in WTY, so no ability to re-blast old chromatograms.

    The low coverage 1000 Genomes data is not of high enough quality to be used to meet ISOGG requirements.

    ņ la carte Z251 SNP tests will need to be purchased for the 11 existing subclades of DF13 in order to get Z251 on the ISOGG tree. Personally, I would also include CTS4466, as it might well make the tree before Z251.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww
    Is anyone tracking the requirements for ISOGG phylogenetic tree positioning?
    Negative in several DF13*people so we know it is downstream of DF13.

    The citizen-science research as shown Z251 is parallel to several of the other subclades of DF13, but I don't think all of them have been checked. I also am not sure that ISOGG will accept results without validation from a lab test, i.e. FTDNA's.

    In this file Z251 is unknown for L96, L144.1, L371 and L555.
    > http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L21.pdf

    > No Z251 results are shown for these as well.
    > http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L513.pdf
    > daver.info/geno/results/R-DF21.pdf
    > daver.info/geno/results/R-DF41.pdf
    > http://daver.info/geno/results/R-DF49.pdf
    > http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L1335.pdf
    > http://daver.info/geno/results/R-Z253.pdf
    > http://daver.info/geno/results/R-Z255.pdf

    Do the Geno 2.0 test results already reported include Z251? or is this a matter of going in and rereading some of the raw data?
    This where the race for recognition between SNPs in a big family (the DF13 family) comes into play. Z251 has the misfortune of being a late discovery.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 04-29-2013 at 11:30 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Look like a lot of work has to be done to get Z251 on the ISOGG tree although I don't think there is much doubt it belongs. The human genome project results don't qualify to support placement on the ISOGG Y haplotree.

    At least one person who is DF49+, one who is DF41+, one who is DF21+, one who is DF1+/L513+, one who is, etc., etc. has to be tested.



    This where the race for recognition between SNPs in a big family (the DF13 family) comes into play. Z251 has the misfortune of being a late discovery.
    As I suggested over on the thread about CTS4466, it is now going to be up to the folks who are positive for a SNP to drum up some funds for testing the other clades so they can get their particular SNP on ISOGG's tree. Unless we get some big donations to cover it, we can't really afford to take the lead on that at the project. At $39 a pop, and so many clades to cover now, it's getting a little pricey.

  9. #19
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    Thus far, it appears that only L1335 and L371 have been tested for Z251 and are negative. Two L1335+ guys (Hiles, kit 107327, and Price, 19706) and one L371+ guy (McKee, kit 143379) have tested Z251-.

    That leaves the following ten clades to be tested for Z251, at $39 apiece:

    R-DF49
    R-L513
    R-L144
    R-L96
    R-Z255
    R-Z253
    R-DF21
    R-DF41
    R-L555
    R-CTS4466

  10. #20
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    I hope we see some more Z251 orders. I caught wind from a project that there are undisclosed Z251+ guys being found in England that have other STR signatures than we have today - that's all I know.

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