Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 29

Thread: Dog Wars - Origins of domesticated dogs.

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,919
    Sex
    Location
    South East Wales UK
    Ethnicity
    Welsh
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106 Z326 R-BY27310
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1b2a

    United Kingdom Wales

    Dog Wars - Origins of domesticated dogs.

    This is an interesting article. Hopefully closer collaboration between researchers may bring us closer to an answer. My gut feeling is the estimated date of domestication will be earlier, rather than later, if we ever get to a conclusion.

    http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeolo...-domestication

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to JohnHowellsTyrfro For This Useful Post:

     evon (08-07-2016),  MikeWhalen (01-12-2016),  psaglav (01-12-2016)

  3. #2
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    927
    Sex
    Location
    EU
    Ethnicity
    Finnish
    Y-DNA (P)
    Father N1c
    mtDNA (M)
    I5a

    I read the article but I did not notice if they commented on this Altaian finding:
    Ancient DNA Analysis Affirms the Canid from Altai as a Primitive Dog (2013)
    The origin of domestic dogs remains controversial, with genetic data indicating a separation between modern dogs and wolves in the Late Pleistocene. However, only a few dog-like fossils are found prior to the Last Glacial Maximum, and it is widely accepted that the dog domestication predates the beginning of agriculture about 10,000 years ago. In order to evaluate the genetic relationship of one of the oldest dogs, we have isolated ancient DNA from the recently described putative 33,000-year old Pleistocene dog from Altai and analysed 413 nucleotides of the mitochondrial control region. Our analyses reveal that the unique haplotype of the Altai dog is more closely related to modern dogs and prehistoric New World canids than it is to contemporary wolves. Further genetic analyses of ancient canids may reveal a more exact date and centre of domestication.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0057754

    According to the paper above, the remains of a primitive dog dated from 31,000 to 36,000 cy in Altai were close to Beringian wolves. I do not know if dogs were really domesticated at that time, but maybe the cooperation process had already begun.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Kristiina For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (01-12-2016),  JohnHowellsTyrfro (01-12-2016),  MikeWhalen (01-12-2016),  Volat (06-03-2016)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,919
    Sex
    Location
    South East Wales UK
    Ethnicity
    Welsh
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106 Z326 R-BY27310
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1b2a

    United Kingdom Wales
    I suppose it depends on how you define "a dog" ? A lot may depend on the context in which any fossils are found, do they demonstrate some sort of collaborative relationship and habitation with humans which indicates "domestication". I'm quite curious about why domestication happened, because modern wolves are still virtually impossible to domesticate as I understand it, at least not to the point where they can live with you in your home. On the other hand, it is quite possible to domesticate young foxes. I think there is one theory that domestication may be down to some genetic variation. There is reference to some genetic evidence of divergence going back 100,000 years. Maybe it's basic evolution and self-selection. Would be good if they find an answer.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to JohnHowellsTyrfro For This Useful Post:

     psaglav (01-12-2016)

  7. #4
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    927
    Sex
    Location
    EU
    Ethnicity
    Finnish
    Y-DNA (P)
    Father N1c
    mtDNA (M)
    I5a

    Yes, maybe there was self-selection. Today, it is easy to see the advantages that the cooperation with dogs brought to Paleolithic humans. Dogs have an incredible sense of smell and they warn you if there is a danger. But how it all started is a mystery. However, it is interesting that in Siberia, there are many myths of humans having a male dog as their ancestor. I am not so well acquainted with this matter, but I presume that many tribes thought that they had an animal as their ancestor, and not all of them were descendants of a dog. There is an interesting book about the history of dogs from dogs’ perspective, but the book is only in Finnish. The book is full of ancient stories about dogs from everywhere in the world, but in particular from pre-Columbian America.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kristiina For This Useful Post:

     JohnHowellsTyrfro (01-17-2016),  psaglav (01-12-2016)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,919
    Sex
    Location
    South East Wales UK
    Ethnicity
    Welsh
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106 Z326 R-BY27310
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1b2a

    United Kingdom Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Yes, maybe there was self-selection. Today, it is easy to see the advantages that the cooperation with dogs brought to Paleolithic humans. Dogs have an incredible sense of smell and they warn you if there is a danger. But how it all started is a mystery. However, it is interesting that in Siberia, there are many myths of humans having a male dog as their ancestor. I am not so well acquainted with this matter, but I presume that many tribes thought that they had an animal as their ancestor, and not all of them were descendants of a dog. There is an interesting book about the history of dogs from dogs’ perspective, but the book is only in Finnish. The book is full of ancient stories about dogs from everywhere in the world, but in particular from pre-Columbian America.
    Finnish Game Research did a study on the effectiveness of hunting with dogs compared to hunting without. I can't find the document now, but I think the conclusions were something like 50%+ more effective with big game and 9 x more effective with small game, which could be a very significant factor in terms of survival. I think myself people owe a lot to the dog and the horse.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JohnHowellsTyrfro For This Useful Post:

     MikeWhalen (06-03-2016),  parasar (01-20-2016)

  11. #6
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,159

    http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...6290/1228.full

    "A dogged investigation of domestication

    The history of how wolves became our pampered pooches of today has remained controversial. Frantz et al. describe high-coverage sequencing of the genome of an Irish dog from the Bronze Age as well as ancient dog mitochondrial DNA sequences. Comparing ancient dogs to a modern worldwide panel of dogs shows an old, deep split between East Asian and Western Eurasian dogs. Thus, dogs were domesticated from two separate wolf populations on either side of the Old World."


  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     JohnHowellsTyrfro (06-08-2016),  Táltos (06-03-2016)

  13. #7
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,337
    Sex
    Location
    Sault Ste Marie, Ontario, Canada
    Ethnicity
    Irish Canadian
    Nationality
    Canada
    Y-DNA (P)
    L513->Z23516>BY11142
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bd

    Canada Ireland Scotland England Ireland County Tipperary Canada Old Newfoundland
    I found this today, a variation on the OP?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/science/a...f-dogs/484976/

    Mike
    Furthest Y line=Patrick Whealen 1816-1874, b.Tipperary Co. Ire. d. Kincardine Ont.

    Y-DNA-RL21-L513-Z23516-BY11142('lost Irish 'C' boys?')

    FTDNA=P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L513+ U198- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- P107- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L705- L577- L193- L159.2- L1333-
    Big-Y=Z23516+
    23&me=L21+
    E.A.= S21-, S26-, S28-, S29-, S68-
    Geno 2 (N.G.P.) H1bd+

    Whalen/Phelan DNA Surname Project
    Hidden Content

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MikeWhalen For This Useful Post:

     JohnHowellsTyrfro (06-08-2016),  Táltos (06-03-2016)

  15. #8
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    The interesting part for me was this:

    The geographic and temporal origins of dogs remain controversial. We generated genetic sequences from 59 ancient dogs and a complete (28x) genome of a late Neolithic dog (dated to ~4800 calendar years before the present) from Ireland. Our analyses revealed a deep split separating modern East Asian and Western Eurasian dogs. Surprisingly, the date of this divergence (~14,000 to 6400 years ago) occurs commensurate with, or several millennia after, the first appearance of dogs in Europe and East Asia. Additional analyses of ancient and modern mitochondrial DNA revealed a sharp discontinuity in haplotype frequencies in Europe. Combined, these results suggest that dogs may have been domesticated independently in Eastern and Western Eurasia from distinct wolf populations. East Eurasian dogs were then possibly transported to Europe with people, where they partially replaced European Paleolithic dogs.
    It proves yet again that just analysing modern DNA can be deceptive. We need ancient DNA.

  16. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     JohnHowellsTyrfro (06-08-2016),  rms2 (06-04-2016),  Saetro (06-04-2016),  Táltos (06-03-2016)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,244
    Sex
    Location
    Amsterdam, Dublin
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L21-DF21-S5456
    mtDNA (M)
    H1C1

    Ireland European Union
    THe Newgrange dog from Ireland clusters with the Western group which is to be expected.

    Moreover, the Newgrange dog clusters tightly with Western Eurasian dogs. We used principal components analysis (PCA), D statistics, and the program TreeMix (12) to further test this pattern. Each of these analyses unequivocally placed the Newgrange dog with modern European dogs (figs. S5 to S7). These findings demonstrate that the node separating the East Asian and Western Eurasian clades is older than the Newgrange individual, which was directly radiocarbon dated to ~4800 years ago.

    image.jpg
    Gerard Corcoran
    R1b-DF21-S5456-S6166, H1C1

  18. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,775
    Sex
    Location
    Dún Laoire, Bláth Cliath, Éire
    Ethnicity
    Gael
    Nationality
    Éireanach
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41
    mtDNA (M)
    U4d3

    Ireland
    Petrous bone technique again, given that things such as Dogs and other domesticated animals are quite common finds at archaeological sites it's gonna provide an interesting framework for future research.

    I'd think horse remains would be particularly interesting in light of Yamnaya etc.
    (R1b-DF41+)
    (MtDNA: U4d3)

    How to pronounce my username (modern Irish):
    Hidden Content

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dubhthach For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (06-04-2016),  Saetro (06-04-2016)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-12-2019, 11:36 PM
  2. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-10-2019, 09:55 AM
  3. dogs domesticated once
    By paoloferrari in forum Fauna
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-21-2017, 09:43 AM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-02-2014, 10:54 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •