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Thread: L226 (L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534>L226) & Irish III

  1. #1
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    L226 (L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534>L226) & Irish III

    So, on my other thread in regards to Cullen's subclade predictor, I posted about my quest to discover my husband's Y lineage:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...lade-predictor

    L226+ is confirmed and so here is where I am in this quest:

    Irish III, terminal snp L226, is the Y signature of the Gaelic Dalcassian Families, based primarily around Counties Clare, Tipperary, and Limerick. The tell-tale markers for Irish III are:
    DYS459= 8,9
    DYS464= 13,13,15,17
    DYS439= 11
    http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Wright.pdf

    My husband's eldest paternal ancestor is said to have been from County Limerick. So, right place.

    The surnames of Irish III are listed here, most notable to me is Brian Boru, High King of Ireland 941–23 April 1014. Brian belonged to the Dál gCais (or Dalcassians), based in the area now known as County Clare. Brian was said to be in his 88th year when he fell in the Battle of Clontarf in 1014, the battle which finally destroyed the power of the Norseman:
    http://www.irishtype3dna.org/surnames.php
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Clontarf

    My husband's surname is not among the Dalcassian surnames. In fact, Frawley, is ultimately descended from Gaelic O’Fearghail and is a variant of Farrell, O’Farrelly, etc. See the Farrell surname project from FTDNA, which my husband is a part of:
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...DNA%20Project/

    O’Fearghail males were princes of Annaly north of Irish III's homeland. This family was based at Longford, which was originally called Longphort Ui Fhearghail ( O’Farrell’s fortress ). Feargal was King of Conmacne and was also slain at the battle of Clontarf in 1014. Looking at the Y DNA classic chart of the Farrell project, there are only 2 clear Irish III's, and both happen to be the only 2 Frawley's. He lists Ireland but I don't know which county. So, for my husband, right county for L226...but most likely wrong surname for L226. It seems to me that Farrell's are overwhelmingly not L226.

    I'm guessing an NPE, seemingly affecting the Frawley's within the Farrell surname lineage. But when? We know that Feargal fought, and died alongside Brian Boru at the battle of Clontarf. Could a Dalcassian male have taken a Ui Fhearghail wife's surname? Did a Ui Fhearghail adopt a Dalcassian prince in some kind of post battle power play? Or some ordinary, more recent, NPE? The other Frawley carries the tell-tale DYS459 and DYS464 results but differs in enough places to show their common ancestor was quite a long time ago. My husband's only 37 marker match at FTDNA is actually a WAMH, 4 step, who somehow tests L226+ (still don't understand how that all worked out). His surname doesn't seem to match either, but is from Tipperary.

    So here's what I've got so far. Still trying to get accepted into the L226 FTDNA project...don't know what is taking so long? I'd be interested in hearing from other L226's to compare notes or anyone with further insight. Many thanks to Clan_Heber, celtic genealogist for pointing me in the right direction for researching this mystery.
    Last edited by Little bit; 09-30-2016 at 10:49 PM.
    My Gedmatch kits: M102536 (v3 upgrade); M054852 (v2); A449981 (Ancestry v1)
    Known: 87.5% UK/Ireland American Colonial; 12.5% PA Dutch Mennonites from Germany & Switzerland
    J1c3i mitochondrial ancestress was Swiss Mennonite from Conestoga, Lancaster PA

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Little bit For This Useful Post:

     MikeWhalen (10-30-2012)

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    Update: FTDNA is offering a sale until 12/31/12 so I went ahead and ordered the upgrade to 67 markers. I have a specific reason for doing this: I was engaging in a very interesting thread with w/Robert Casey who gave me some very useful hints about the 2 Frawley's at FTDNA. The other Frawley shares some off-modal mutations w/my husband (385a >= 12 and 449 >= 30) but has the off modal 439=12, whereas my husband has the modal 439=11. Marker 439 appears to be very important for L226's as Robert Casey informed me:
    ...the marker 439 >= 12 is very important. This is the L21 modal value that only around 20 % of L226 submissions have. I interpret this to mean that 439 >= 12 is an early branch of L226 and that most of L226 are 439 <= 11 which is big fork in the genetic descendant tree for L226.
    Robert Casey advised I upgrade to 67 markers to test 2 more markers which may finally determine if the 2 Frawley's are related: 534 >= 16 and 531 >= 12. So, we'll see...will update when I know. Here's a link to the other thread which went a little off topic, but I originally posted to it because I talked my grandfather into taking the 37 marker test and his line is supposed to be from Wales :
    R1b-L371 / S300 Wales
    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=501
    My Gedmatch kits: M102536 (v3 upgrade); M054852 (v2); A449981 (Ancestry v1)
    Known: 87.5% UK/Ireland American Colonial; 12.5% PA Dutch Mennonites from Germany & Switzerland
    J1c3i mitochondrial ancestress was Swiss Mennonite from Conestoga, Lancaster PA

  4. #3
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    Well like every surname in Ireland there are often several independent occurences. Often what happens is that the "most famous" one tends to eclipse the other ones when it comes to popular imagination. Here's what Woulfe says in his 1923 book:

    Ó FEARGHAILE—I—O Farrialla, O Ferralla, Farrelly, Frawley, Farrell, &c.; 'descendant of Fearghal'; a variant of Ó Fearghail, which see; sometimes metathesised to Ó Freaghaile, anglicised Frawley.


    Ó FEARGHAIL—I—O Ferrall, O'Farrell, Farrell, Ferrall, Farrahill, Frahill, Fraul; 'descendant of Fearghal' (super-valour); the name of several distinct families, of which the best known are the O'Farrells of Annaly, in the present Co. Longford, of which they were for many centuries the ruling race. The head of the family resided at the town of Longford, which was formerly known as Longphort Ui Fhearghail, or O'Farrell's fortress. In later times, the O'Farrells divided into two great branches, the heads of which were known respectively as O'Farrell Boy, the yellow O'Farrell, and O'Farrell Bane, the fair O'Farrell. The O'Farrells maintained their independence as a clan down to the year 1565, when Annaly was reduced to shire ground by the lord-deputy, Sir Henry Sidney. Though suffering severely from the plantation schemes of James I, the O'Farrells were able to take a prominent part in all the political and military movements of the 17th century, and many of them were afterwards distinguished officers in the Irish brigades in the service of France. This family is now very numerous. Other families of this name were seated in Wicklow and Tyrone. The name is also written Ó Fearghaile and Ó Firghil, which see, and sometimes, by the aspiration of the initial f, changed into Ó hEarghail, Ó hEarghaile, which see.
    The Irish Times surname search page has following:

    frawley households in each county in the Primary Valuation property survey of 1847-64.

    Click on a county name for a parish breakdown of the number of households,
    and an all-Ireland parish map (paying).
    Clare 75
    Cork 10
    Kerry 3
    Limerick 56
    Limerick city 4

    Tipperary 9
    Waterford 1
    As you can see vast bulk are in Clare and Limerick which of course form the core of the Kingdom of Thomond (Tuaidh Mhumha = North Munster).

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Dubhthach For This Useful Post:

     MikeWhalen (11-17-2012)

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    Very nice, thank you Dubhthach for this useful information. If the Frawley's are differentiated enough by 439 and the 2 other marker's not working out, than clearly there is more to the story. I still find it intriguing that both Frawley's would be the only 2 to carry the tell-tale L226 markers in the surname project, DYS459= 8,9, DYS464= 13,13,15,17. Judging by the few L226's I find in the group's I've joined, it seems not to be overly common branch and Frawley seems uncommon as a surname, or at least as a variant of Farrell. Either way, I can see why so many people get into researching their Y line. I sat on the sidelines for a long time, wondering what was so fascinating...now I know.
    My Gedmatch kits: M102536 (v3 upgrade); M054852 (v2); A449981 (Ancestry v1)
    Known: 87.5% UK/Ireland American Colonial; 12.5% PA Dutch Mennonites from Germany & Switzerland
    J1c3i mitochondrial ancestress was Swiss Mennonite from Conestoga, Lancaster PA

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    Dub rules when it comes to great info on Irish history and such!

    Mike
    Furthest Y line=Patrick Whealen 1816-1874, b.Tipperary Co. Ire. d. Kincardine Ont.

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    FTDNA=P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L513+ U198- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- P107- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L705- L577- L193- L159.2- L1333-
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    Dub rules when it comes to great info on Irish history and such!
    Good to know, I may try and mine him for data as the results come in. To see how uncommon Frawley is, I plugged it into Ancestry.com's American Surname tool:
    http://www.americansurnames.us/surname/frawley

    ----------------------------------------Total/Rank/Frequency%/Per million people
    United States (Current snapshot) 3,118 9567 0.001 12

    Compare to Farrell:
    http://www.americansurnames.us/surname/FARRELL

    Interesting that Wisconsin is one of the top states for frequency of Frawley - my husband's paternal ancestors settled in the Milwaukee area. Even in Ireland, Frawley is dwarfed by Farrelly and Farrell:
    Frawley
    http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/s...rawley&UserID=
    Farrelly
    http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/s...rrelly&UserID=
    Farrell:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/s...arrell&UserID=
    Last edited by Little bit; 11-18-2012 at 04:25 PM.
    My Gedmatch kits: M102536 (v3 upgrade); M054852 (v2); A449981 (Ancestry v1)
    Known: 87.5% UK/Ireland American Colonial; 12.5% PA Dutch Mennonites from Germany & Switzerland
    J1c3i mitochondrial ancestress was Swiss Mennonite from Conestoga, Lancaster PA

  9. #7
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    OK, Panel 4 (38-47) came in last night. No match. The other Frawley is 531 >= 12 and my husband is 531 >= 11. With only 1 four step match at 37 markers, it looks like my husband/son are on their own in terms of matches. The upside, if there is one, is 11 is modal for L226.
    My Gedmatch kits: M102536 (v3 upgrade); M054852 (v2); A449981 (Ancestry v1)
    Known: 87.5% UK/Ireland American Colonial; 12.5% PA Dutch Mennonites from Germany & Switzerland
    J1c3i mitochondrial ancestress was Swiss Mennonite from Conestoga, Lancaster PA

  10. #8
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    No match w/the other Frawley. I was testing to see if they shared the off-modal 534 >= 16 and 531 >= 12. My husband is 534 >= 15 and 531 >= 11.

    12 matches at 67 markers:
    1 5 step - same person as the 37 marker match, just one more step away (he was a 4 step match at 37)
    2 6 step matches
    9 7 step matches

    If I hadn't already snp tested L226 it would be obvious I should: 5 of the 12 are L226. 2 are "private" and 5 are unassigned.
    Last edited by Little bit; 12-04-2012 at 01:58 PM.
    My Gedmatch kits: M102536 (v3 upgrade); M054852 (v2); A449981 (Ancestry v1)
    Known: 87.5% UK/Ireland American Colonial; 12.5% PA Dutch Mennonites from Germany & Switzerland
    J1c3i mitochondrial ancestress was Swiss Mennonite from Conestoga, Lancaster PA

  11. #9
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    L226 (L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534>L226) & Irish III

    The SNP L226 seems to very nicely fit what was the Irish III haplotype modal. Key off-modal STRs are DYS459=8,9 DYS439<=11 DYS464a,b=13,13 DYS557<=15.

    The project is at www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L226_Project/

    One theory is that these people are associated with the Dalcassian clans of the Munster area of Ireland.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais

  12. #10
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    I have only just become aware of this forum because of a chance mention today by Alex Williamson. I really missed the earlier forum that fell off the cliff 12 months ago.

    Anyway, I run the Irish Type III website, and am coordinator of the R-L226 project at FTDNA so glad to be here. If I can be any help with info on this cluster, please post here.

    Regards, Dennis Wright

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