L1335 (L21>DF13>L1335) & L1065

[TigerMW]

The SNP L1335 was found in people that match the Scots Modal and also R1bSTR47. It is my understanding that John McEwan identified and analyzed R1bSTR47. As it turns out another STR signature was also found to have L1335+ and of course additional types could be added as we go.

The off-modal STR signature that seems to line with the Scots Modal/R1bSTR47 folks is DYS391<=10 DYS449>=30 GataH4=12 DYS531>=12 DYS413a<=22 444<=11 YCAIIb=24/22

We know that R1bSTR47 cluster (that is commonly called Scots and is consistent with what is called Colla) is very frequent in Scotland less so in England and is nearly absent in Wales. It also has a 10 fold lower frequency in Ireland (2% vs 21% of R1b). An early analysis suggested that the group present in England (3%) has more diversity in their haplotypes (code for saying they are descended from an earlier ancestor then those in Scotland). The current distribution presented in the graph on the site which is not fully corrected for biases but suggests Argyll is the region of the highest concentration. However, in absolute numbers it is lowland Scotland around Glasgow. What impressed me was the major differences fall along historical borders: Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland. These have been present since at least Roman times so these differences most likely were established at or prior to that date.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-02/1139479547
ScotlandDNA founders have indicated R1bSTR47 may actually be a marker for ancient Picts rather that the Scots that came into Scotland from Ireland.

I don't know but additional good news is that the SNP L1065 is found, so far, to be positive in Scots Modal people and negative in Wales II people so we may have a nice dividing SNP.

It is my understanding that the Wales II Modal was identified by Robert Hughes. The key off-modal STRs are DYS391=10 DYS385a=12 DYS459a=10. Some theorize that it is related to Welsh tribal patriarch Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrud.

From: JOHN PLUMMER (2010 edit by Susan Rosine)
Subject: [DNA] Welsh: 391=10, 385a=12,459a=10 etc: Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd, born 1016
Date: 20 Oct 2007
There are seven examples on ysearch of a distinctive type of R1b1b2 which can be identified with Welsh tribal patriarch Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd. The DNA has differences showing that two branches are represented, believed to belong to two sons of Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd. The traditional birthdate of Cadwgon is 1016 which seems reasonable as his son Gronwy was living in 1101
....
The Miles/Collins branch of this family shares a value of 24 for DYS 447 and 20 or 21 for DYS 576. It was the Miles data that enabled the identification with Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd to be made. The Miles immigrant was a Welsh Quaker who went from Llanfanhangel Helygen, Radnorshire, Wales to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1684. This area in Wales between the Wye and the Severn was the tribal territory of the family of Elystan Glodrudd. Not only that, but the only Miles family in Volume 2 of The Development of Welsh Heraldry by Michael Powell Siddons was seated at Harpton, Old Radnor. There are only about 8 miles between Harpton and Llanfahangel Helygen where the immigrant Samuel Miles attended Quaker Monthly meeting. The Harpton Miles family descended from Hoedlyw, son of Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd. Three of the seven of this family are Prices (one spelled Priest). If one checks the online surname profiler, the greatest concentration of Price is in Radnorshire. Checking Siddons, the Radnorshire Prices descend from Idnerth and Llewelyn, sons of Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd. There is also a doubtful Price line from Hoedlyw. Hopefully still more of this prolific Welsh tribe will join the databases so we can make the identification rock solid and clarify the branchings. I might note that I have an every-generation-descent from Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd, but not in the male line. Probably every-generation-male-line-descents exist, or can be developed.

[rms2]

I saw that L1065 has made it onto ISOGG's R Tree, so this morning I created a separate category for it in the R-L21 Plus Project underneath L1335.

[TigerMW]

I saw that L1065 has made it onto ISOGG's R Tree, so this morning I created a separate category for it in the R-L21 Plus Project underneath L1335.

Yes, I wonder if the advent of L1065 isn't slowing progress on L1335. The Scots/R1bSTR47 (1335-Sc) guys need to test the edges of L1065 but I think they are assuming already they are all L1335+. That is probably the correct approach for them.

However, we really don't know the extent of L1335 among DF13* types. Since the GDs are wide between 1335-Sc and 1335-W2 (Wales II) there is plenty of room for other DF13* to come up L1335+.

[Mestre]

Hmmm, interesting. My results conform to this criteria - DYS391<=10 DYS449>=30 GataH4=12 DYS531>=12 DYS413a<=22 444<=11 YCAIIb=24/22 and L1335+, L1064+. From the, Pritchard, ap.Ritchard clan. Time to buy a kilt!

[TigerMW]

Has anyone looked at possible alternate signatures for L1335+ people? We don't know how far it extends into DF13* STR signatures yet.

The 1335-W2 L1335* folks include Price/Preston/Miles/Sipe/Collins. The 1335-W2 signature is the Wales II/Cadwgan modal as discovered by Robert Hughes. They have a strong STR signature:
391=10 385=12,14 459=10,10 448<=18 607>=16 576>=19 511>=11 534<=14 (464=15,16,16,17 446<=12)

I've been placing MacDougall with them. f74305 MacDougall Scotland matches the above except he is L21 modal at
464c=17 446=13

He should be tested for L1335 to confirm. This could be a very important evidence point as this correlates nicely with the Welsh Prince Cadwgon "men of the North" story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd

f159054 Unknown from Lewis project loses a couple of more off-modal STRs but maintains the following STR signature in with the Wales II folks.
459=10,10 464b=16 511=11 534<=14

511=11 is fairly slow and 459=10,10 is fairly rare. I recommend having f159054 testing for L1335.

[Andrew Lancaster]

The SNP L1335 was found in people that match the Scots Modal and also R1bSTR47. It is my understand that John McEwan identified and analyzed R1bSTR47. As it turns out another STR signature was also found to have L1335+ and of course additional types could be added as we go.

The off-modal STR signature that seems to line with the Scots Modal/R1bSTR47 folks is DYS391<=10 DYS449>=30 GataH4=12 DYS531>=12 DYS413a<=22 444<=11 YCAIIb=24/22
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-02/1139479547
ScotlandDNA founders have indicated R1bSTR47 may actually be a marker for ancient Picts rather that the Scots that came into Scotland from Ireland.

I don't know but additional good news is that the SNP L1065 is found, so far, to be positive in Scots Modal people and negative in Wales II people so we may have a nice dividing SNP.

It is my understanding that the Wales II Modal was identified by Robert Hughes. The key off-modal STRs are DYS391=10 DYS385a=12 DYS459a=10. Some theorize that it is related to Welsh tribal patriarch Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrud.

Just for those who like to keep record...

When John compared his cluster 47 to two other older terms I understand that the name "Scots" was Ken Nordtvedt's and the term "Colla" was one from Mark and Doug of the Clan Donald project. The other term that had been thrown around maybe even earlier was "Dal Riada". This was coming from a lot of discussions between clan surname projects (including the Clan Donald project) which had noticed quite early how many Argyll clan chiefs shared a haplotype. I believe this may have even been spotted in the days of 12 marker tests. John (and before him Ken) gave some backbone to the cluster identification in the later time with more markers.

Andrew

[Luckie]

My off-modal signature is DYS391=10 DYS449=30 GataH4=12 DYS531=12 DYS413a=22 DYS444=11 YCAIIb=23. I am currently snp testing L1335 to be certain it is positive.

If L1335 is positive then will proceed to L1065. DYS391=10 DYS385a=11 DYS459a=9.

After that where do I look? I do not know of a common ancestor outside of the US. My Luckey surname is not very common among Scottish names. I have only 23 67 str matches between 4 to 7 steps off. However most appear to be among those of Highland Scots.

Ken

[rms2]

L743 is downstream of L1065. If you are L1065+, you can give L743 a try.

[TigerMW]

I'm coming to the conclusion that our current exploratory testing for L1335 and for L1065 are still pretty light and we still don't know the edges,
STR-wise/GD-wise, on these.

I just checked all of the L1065+ confirmed people and about the largest GD to their modal I could find was GD=15 @67. I then reselected for all 1335-Sc
(Scots) variety type people and checked their GD's to the same modal. I get up GD's up to 21.

As far as L1335, 391=10 seems to be about the only thing in common between 1335-Sc and 1335-W2 (Wales II). Perhaps all of the L21 / DF13 391=10 people who haven't found a downstream SNP yet and haven't tested for L1335, should consider it?

[Magnus_Eunson]

I'm coming to the conclusion that our current exploratory testing for L1335 and for L1065 are still pretty light and we still don't know the edges,
STR-wise/GD-wise, on these.

I just checked all of the L1065+ confirmed people and about the largest GD to their modal I could find was GD=15 @67. I then reselected for all 1335-Sc
(Scots) variety type people and checked their GD's to the same modal. I get up GD's up to 21.

As far as L1335, 391=10 seems to be about the only thing in common between 1335-Sc and 1335-W2 (Wales II). Perhaps all of the L21 / DF13 391=10 people who haven't found a downstream SNP yet and haven't tested for L1335, should consider it?

I'm very interested as to where the fringes of L1335 and L1065 reside, so I would also like to take the time to encourage more testing for these particular snp's. While I do believe that any age estimate would be speculative, I have received from a very credible source that L1065 seems to be in the 2000+/- year old range, which would be slightly older than some of the other estimates others have posted. Now I am having trouble understanding the age difference between the STR's and the SNP L1065? Is there a difference, could the Scots Modal signature be younger than the SNP or am I lost in the sauce? As to the distribution, has the geographic distribution changed at any extent with those that are currently tested positive for L1335/L1065, and with further testing how possible is it that we will even see a change in this geographical distribution.