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Thread: Source of L21+ in Norway..

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    With the new Iceland study just out it is looking more likely that L21 in Norway came from the west, during or after the Viking age, as none of the Norse samples belong to R1b-L21, while several of the "Celtic" samples do (some are even DF13 like me)..
    Can you provide a link to the new Iceland study? I am familiar with the one that came out in 2015, but haven'y heard anything about a new one.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    Can you provide a link to the new Iceland study? I am familiar with the one that came out in 2015, but haven'y heard anything about a new one.
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/1028

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    It need not be via slave trading, as when Norse peoples went on viking raids they often included others ethnic groups too, so there could be Danes, Angles Svea (Swedes), Norse, "Celts" etc.. Who might then settle in what is now modern day Norway.. Also, slaves could and often became free by "working off their debt" to their masters. So over time the descendants from these slaves would become a big part of the Norse genepool.

    My working theory is still that my own YDNA line came a little later, around the 1400-1500's (I can trace it back to about 1520), maybe in connection with the timber trade between Scotland-Shetland-Orkney-Norway (during the early days of what is called the Scottish era here in Norway).

    Time will tell I guess... I am also waiting to hear back from LivingDNA regarding SNP's downstream of DF13...
    No you're absolutely right about that. If you haven't read it already here is an excellent paper about Harold Bluetooth's army:

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...125A1071687549

    It mentions that the majority of warriors in Trelleborg were from Norwegian and Slavic countries so no exactly cut and dried.


    George

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  6. #64
    According to several archeological founds the Roman's had an enormous production of steel in Norway. I cannot post links but Google search for "Roman's in Norway" and/or "NORGES JERNALDER. DE ROMERSKE Provinser I NORGE", it is mostly written in English.

  7. #65
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    So I contacted LivingDNA, requesting a list of SNP's downstream of DF13 that I tested negative for, but it seems like they must have misunderstood me and have instead come back to me with two SNP's, which I assume I test positive for:
    Hello so the team have come back with the following : FGC5512`/rs1049521763` and Z2542`/CTS8221`/`rs138975640`
    I checked Z2542/CTS8221 and they seem to be the same as DF13, and I tested positive for Z2542 according to FTDNA:
    A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11567-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF13+, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L130-, L1335-, L144-, L159-, L192-, L193-, L195-, L2-, L21+, L226-, L23+, L238-, L278+, L371-, L389+, L408-, L47-, L48-, L51+, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M1994-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M335-, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, MC14-, P107-, P25+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P66-, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542+, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z296-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z8056-, Z9-
    So if my theory is correct I am also positive for FGC5512, which s not listed in the YDNA file for some reason (sirius chip issue?)... First confirmed FGC5512 in Norway perhaps?

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  9. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    So I contacted LivingDNA, requesting a list of SNP's downstream of DF13 that I tested negative for, but it seems like they must have misunderstood me and have instead come back to me with two SNP's, which I assume I test positive for:


    I checked Z2542/CTS8221 and they seem to be the same as DF13, and I tested positive for Z2542 according to FTDNA:


    So if my theory is correct I am also positive for FGC5512, which s not listed in the YDNA file for some reason (sirius chip issue?)... First confirmed FGC5512 in Norway perhaps?
    YFull has that downstream of FGC5496 and primarily calls it Y15071.

    Go to YFull's R1b Tree here. Hold down the ctrl key and type f. Type or copy and paste FGC5512 in the little find box and click on the down arrow. FGC5512 will appear highlighted.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  11. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    So I contacted LivingDNA, requesting a list of SNP's downstream of DF13 that I tested negative for, but it seems like they must have misunderstood me and have instead come back to me with two SNP's, which I assume I test positive for:
    [… the following : FGC5512`/rs1049521763` and Z2542`/CTS8221`/`rs138975640` ]
    So if my theory is correct I am also positive for FGC5512, which s not listed in the YDNA file for some reason (sirius chip issue?)... First confirmed FGC5512 in Norway perhaps?
    Evon, Yes you appear to be FGC5494+ as FGC5512 is just below. R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > FGC5494 > FGC5561 > FGC7448 > FGC5496 > FGC5521 & FGC5512 (block of two) before the next split. The Ytree site shows, using Iain McDonald's calculation, the median age of this block is 2241.33 YBP (292 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 925 BC to 244 AD.

    I was DF13* forever until I did a Full Genome NGS test and found out new DF13 branch. Look here for the latest NGS results.
    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php...262&star=false
    These block of the FGC5494 branch is relative large now. I am paternally Manx and I have
    British Isles 26% and Scandinavia 25% My Watterson ancestors have been on the Isle of Man for as long as anyone can remember. Surname records go back very early to the 1400's. There was heavy Scandinavian settlement of the island. Maternally I am East Europe 46%, so that confirms my paternal makeup.

    I have considerable York and east Highlands connections, so there well maybe a direct connection to Norway. Just not sure which way the son's moved first and later on. You may want to consider either FGC5494 subclade SNP test or just test for FGC5494 or do a NGS test when you can.

    Welcome to the FGC5494 group!
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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  13. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Evon, Yes you appear to be FGC5494+ as FGC5512 is just below. R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > FGC5494 > FGC5561 > FGC7448 > FGC5496 > FGC5521 & FGC5512 (block of two) before the next split. The Ytree site shows, using Iain McDonald's calculation, the median age of this block is 2241.33 YBP (292 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 925 BC to 244 AD.

    I was DF13* forever until I did a Full Genome NGS test and found out new DF13 branch. Look here for the latest NGS results.
    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php...262&star=false
    These block of the FGC5494 branch is relative large now. I am paternally Manx and I have
    British Isles 26% and Scandinavia 25% My Watterson ancestors have been on the Isle of Man for as long as anyone can remember. Surname records go back very early to the 1400's. There was heavy Scandinavian settlement of the island. Maternally I am East Europe 46%, so that confirms my paternal makeup.

    I have considerable York and east Highlands connections, so there well maybe a direct connection to Norway. Just not sure which way the son's moved first and later on. You may want to consider either FGC5494 subclade SNP test or just test for FGC5494 or do a NGS test when you can.

    Welcome to the FGC5494 group!
    I will test further downstream of FGC5512 when I get money and have the time, but for now I am just happy to have moved 2000 years closer in time with my YDNA research I am fairly certain it came to Norway from UK now, but at what time is another matter, but during the Norwegian golden age might be a good fit..

    Here is a map of Norway during the golden age (Greenland not included):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdo...%E2%80%931397)

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  15. #69
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    So it turns out that I am 99% likely to be Y30355, as a 0 distance match on 67 STR markers, just did a Y700 and came out as Y30355. We even claim the same ancestral line, so I trust the results.

    From what I can tell we are 4-5 people (three have done BigY/Y700 etc), in this tiny cluster centered around Hardanger in Norway, but the closest match outside of our cluster is from Cornwall in England (he is BY34749, so upstream from us and hence the direction of geneflow is not from Norway). So it seems likely that the line might have migrated to Norway from England sometime in the past. I was not expecting a Cornwall connection, so that was a surprise to say the least... Although we may never know the reason behind the migration, I did come across a few instances that might be the reason for it, this one caught my eye as it fits very well:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hingston_Down

    It is the only instance of a direct connection between Scandinavia and Cornwall that I have come across. But one can imagine that some of the defeated Cornwall men might have left with the Viking army as it retreated, but as a fighter/Viking and not as a thrall. Another possible explanation might be a posting in Norway as a member of the clergy (as there was a supposed English founded monastery in Hardanger Furthermore, the local apple tree variant is said to have arrived in Hardanger with the help of English monks), or one of the many rebellions against the English, which led to many Cornwall nobles loosing their lands and titles (this is actually the case with my English Gray line, although he came to Norway from the Welsh border regions in the 1600's)..
    Last edited by evon; 06-16-2019 at 08:38 PM.

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  17. #70
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    The Celtic/Norse connection is not just R-L21; my mtdna subclade J1c2b is common in both Ireland and Denmark. And Icelanders are genetically a mix of Norse men and Gaelic women. While there are reports of Celtic slaves being brought to Norway, I'm not sure they'd have come all the way from Cornwall; Scotland and to a lesser extent Ireland are more likely, so the Cornish clergyman theory may not be too far off.

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