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Thread: Source of L21+ in Norway..

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    There were Bell Beaker people in SW Norway during the Bronze Age. They could account for some of the L21.
    I seem to remember Jean M saying there are some archaeologists who contend the Beaker settlements in Norway may have been more substantial than generally acknowledged. This could well have brought a variety of P312 subclades to Norway, including L21 of course.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 08-04-2016 at 01:33 AM.

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    Thx Evon.

    My segment (common with my father) is only shared by a handfull of people (5 lines, with 3 from Norway (with 1 line father/son), my line (me/my father), an US lady with an unknown great grandfather. The Norwegians cluster together (longer segment: example: one to one between 2 of them: 16,7 cM with more than 4000 SNPs), and the US lady seems closer to them than me (example: 7,4 cM with more than 2000 SNPs, my father: 7cM with 940 SNPs).
    So, even if it's probably an IBD, it's probably too ancient to find a common ancestor.

    About R1b L21 in Norway, it would be interesting to test remains from before the Great Plague, because haplogroups frequency could have changed because of heavy mortality.

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    And all Bell Beaker Folks were Celtic-speakers, according to more recent theories.

    So not only the Cimbri of Jutland were Celtic, but there were even Celts in Norway.

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    According to an older theory, Celts expanded in the Iron Age with Hallstatt and La Tene cultures, while the earlier Bronze Age Beaker Folks had been Non-Indo-European people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And all Bell Beaker Folks were Celtic-speakers, according to more recent theories.

    So not only the Cimbri of Jutland were Celtic, but there were even Celts in Norway.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture
    "A Strontium isotope analysis of 86 people from Bell Beaker graves in Bavaria suggests that 18-25% of all graves were occupied by people who came from a considerable distance outside the area. This was true of children as well as adults, indicative of some significant migration wave. Given the similarities with readings from people living on loess soils, the general direction of the local movement according to Price et al., is from the northeast to the southwest.[31]"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And all Bell Beaker Folks were Celtic-speakers, according to more recent theories.

    So not only the Cimbri of Jutland were Celtic, but there were even Celts in Norway.
    Bell Beaker is probably too early for the relevant sound changes that define Celtic branch of Indo-European.
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    Considering if I should do a Big Y test...But I cant find any price info on that test?

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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    Considering if I should do a Big Y test...But I cant find any price info on that test?

    Right now it's selling for $575.00.

    Any male Family Tree DNA customer with a complete Y-STR test may order the Big Y product through their myFTDNA account.

    To do so:
    Sign in to your myFTDNA account.
    Click the blue Upgrade button in the upper-right corner of the page.
    Look for the Father’s Line section, and click the blue price button, which will open the shopping cart for you to complete your order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I seem to remember Jean M saying there are some archaeologists who contend the Beaker settlements in Norway may have been more substantial than generally acknowledged.
    Not really. The lack of Bell Beaker pottery in Norway hampered identification of some material there as belonging to the Bell Beaker culture. However these were not substantial settlements. Far from it. These are a few finds in remote rock-shelters. I suggest that they may indicate copper prospectors. I wouldn't bet heavily on these people remaining in Norway long-term or having any modern descendants there, though one never knows.

    Lene Melheim, Towards a new understanding of Late Neolithic Norway – the role of metal and metalworking (2012) presents some overlooked metal finds. She suggests that metals and metal-working arrived in Norway in the wake of Bell Beaker.
    https://www.academia.edu/1285665/Tow...d_metalworking
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-05-2016 at 11:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Not really. The lack of Bell Beaker pottery in Norway hampered identification of some material there as belonging to the Bell Beaker culture. However these were not substantial settlements. Far from it. These are a few finds in remote rock-shelters. I suggest that they may indicate copper prospectors. I wouldn't bet heavily on these people remaining in Norway long-term or having any modern descendants there, though one never knows.

    Lene Melheim, Towards a new understanding of Late Neolithic Norway – the role of metal and metalworking (2012) presents some overlooked metal finds. She suggests that metals and metal-working arrived in Norway in the wake of Bell Beaker.
    https://www.academia.edu/1285665/Tow...d_metalworking
    Perhaps my memory was erroneous. If P312 in Norway is not a descendant of Bell Beakers settlements, one has to come up with an alternate theory why (as suggested by the current data), P312 outnumbers U106 in modern Norway. I find the argument that it is primarily due to events within the historical period, from Viking slaves to later migration, to be untenable. Take the example of P312 subclade L238, which is common in Norway, but scarce to non-existant outside of Scandinavia, including Ireland, Britain, Holland and Germany.

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