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Thread: Source of L21+ in Norway..

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    Perhaps my memory was erroneous. If P312 in Norway is not a descendant of Bell Beakers settlements, one has to come up with an alternate theory why (as suggested by the current data), P312 outnumbers U106 in modern Norway. I find the argument that it is primarily due to events within the historical period, from Viking slaves to later migration, to be untenable. Take the example of P312 subclade L238, which is common in Norway, but scarce to non-existant outside of Scandinavia, including Ireland, Britain, Holland and Germany.
    The German, Danish, Scottish and Dutch immigration was very substantial and from my own research such immigrants tended to have allot of children who held onto the non-Norwegian surname for generations due to the high status it seems to have held for them. A good example is my Mentz linage on my fathers side, this linage became so large that I am related to the same person several times through several different branches that are intertwined through the centuries..The same is true for several of my other non-Norwegian lines such as Klingenberg, Kramer, Hess, Gray, Maxwell etc..I would suspect that these immigrants represent a large part of the current YDNA genepool in western Norway. This is also reflected in autosomal DNA, with people from western Norway often scoring around 50% "British", which I suspect is really a North German signature and not actually British as FTDNA and 23andme claim etc...

    What are the numbers of L238 compared to L21+ in western Norway?

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    What are the numbers of L238 compared to L21+ in western Norway?
    Unfortunately the only large scientific sampling of YDNA in Norway I am aware of (The Old Norway Project) doesn't seem to have ever published its results. This consisted of 82 samples labeled Norway Coastal (Trondheim, Stavanger, Tingvoll and Sognefjord), 221 labeled Norway Inland (Namdalen, Gulbrandsdalen and Hedemark) and another 72 labeled Norway "not yet assigned". The only results I know of were just published as pie charts. The R1b portions were divided into U106, U152, L21, M222, SRY2827 (which is part of DF27), and the remaining P312* (which would include L238 and the remaining P312 subclades). In the coastal samples, P312* alone was about a third of the R1b portion and considerably larger than the U106 portion. L21 was about an eighth of the R1b portion. In Norway Inland, the total of P312 in the R1b portion was slightly larger than U106. P312* appears to be approximately a quarter of the R1b total, slightly larger than the L21 portion.

    I don't have access to the L21 Project data, but I can say that there are over 4750 members of the FTDNA L21 project. Less than 30 of them appear to be from Norway. I do have access to the L238 Project, which has 76 members. Their origins are listed as follows:
    Norway 24
    Sweden 16
    UK and Scotland 5 each
    Finland 4
    England and the USA only 3 each
    Ireland 2
    Germany, Poland, Austria and the Faroe Islands 1 each

    I can add to this the Genomes of the Netherlands project data, which in a sample of 500 found 16 L21 and zero L238.

    While I have no doubt that L21 is a considerably more numerous subclade of P312 than L238, one must keep in mind tha the FTDNA database is overwhelmingly composed of people with ancestry from the British Isles and Ireland, where L21 is dominant. Scandinavia is comparatively extremely under represented.

    Some years ago L238 was identified as the distinguishing SNP of what Ken Nordtvedt identified as the "Norse" variety of R1b. He thought it was an early entrant to coastal Norway, and spread from there.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 08-05-2016 at 11:45 PM.

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  5. #23
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    Will have a look at some of the other projects tomorrow and see if I can make a statistic overview..Too tired for that today

  6. #24
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    Some data of Norwegians DNA signatures from several projects, only R1b (some duplication might occur due to people being a member of several project at the same time):

    L238 project (total participants 76):
    - R1b L238+, Y10824+, A6291&A6292+: 4
    - R1b L238+, Y10824+, 8488790&17762748+: 1
    - R1b L238+: 11
    Total: 15

    Norway DNA project (total participants 3610):
    - R1b M269+: 90
    - R1b M269+ L23+: 1
    - R1b M269+ L23+ CTS4528+: 1
    - R1b M269+ L23+ Z2103+ Z2106+ Z2109+: 2
    - R1b M269+ L23+ Z2109+ BY250+ Y19469+: 2
    Totalt L23: 5
    - R1b M269+ P312+: 9
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF19+ DF88+: 1
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF19+ Z302+: 1
    Totalt DF19: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+ DF17+ CTS7768+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+ DF176+ SRY2627+: 1
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+ DF176+ SRY2627+ Z207+ CTS4299: 1
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+ Z274+ S21184+: 1
    Total DF27: 9
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+: 9
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+: 4
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ DF21+ P314.2+: 1
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ DF21+ S5456+ BY3300+: 1
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ DF21+ S971+ S3862+ S956+ S953+ Y9053+: 5
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ FGC11134+: 1
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ FGC11134+ CTS4466+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ FGC5494+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ L1335+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ M222+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ Z253+: 4
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ Z255+ L159.2+: 8
    Totalt L21: 41
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L238+: 14
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L238+ Z2247+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L238+ Z2247+ A6292+: 1
    - R1b M269+ P312+ L238+ Z2247+ A8150+: 1
    Totalt L238: 18
    - R1b M269+ P312+ U152+: 3
    - R1b M269+ P312+ U152+ L2+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ U152+ L2+ Z49+: 2
    - R1b M269+ P312+ U152+ Z36+: 1
    Totalt U152: 8
    - R1b M269+ U106+: 29
    - R1b M269+ U106+ Z18+: 21 (moved all Z18 sub clades into this field)
    - R1b M269+ U106+ Z381+: 46 (moved all Z381 sub clades into this field)

    Scandinavian DNA project (total participants 1945):
    - CTS3777: 1
    - Z49: 1
    - Z2542: 1
    - L238: 5 (sub clade merged into this field)
    - BY250: 1
    - M269: 21
    - P311: 6
    - U106: 5
    - Z18: 1
    - Z372: 2
    - L257: 2
    - DF95: 1
    - Z381: 2
    - Z307: 1
    - U198: 1
    - CTS10893 / S3595
    - P312: 10
    - Z196: 1
    - DF17 CTS7768: 1
    - M167: 1
    - U152: 1
    - L2: 1
    - Z49: 1
    - L21: 5
    - DF13: 3
    - L159: 3
    - CTS1202.1: 1
    - A287: 1
    - Z18: 1
    - BY157: 1
    - DF21: 5
    - CTS4528: 1
    - Z2109: 1

    M222 project (total participants 1535)
    - M222: 2

    p312+ project (total participants 2764):
    - P312+: 5
    - L238: 18
    - DF19: 2
    - Z196: 5
    - DF27: 1
    - L21: 6
    - U152: 3

    U152 Project (total participants 1748):
    -L2: 6

    Thats it for today, should help give some overview of some of the most common R1b branches in Norway.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    https://i.imgsafe.org/1ccdc87f68.png
    Your map disappeared.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    Some data of Norwegians DNA signatures from several projects, only R1b (some duplication might occur due to people being a member of several project at the same time):

    [snip]
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF19+ DF88+: 1
    - R1b M269+ P312+ DF19+ Z302+: 1
    Totalt DF19: 2
    [/snip]

    Thats it for today, should help give some overview of some of the most common R1b branches in Norway.
    There are now 3 DF19s listing MDKAs in Norway (there are 5 in Sweden, only one in Denmark).
    Interestingly, one of the 3 Norwegians is one of only 2 DF88* participants (so one of the oldest lines) to date, and the other DF88* is from Poland. No idea if it means anything, though.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  11. #27
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    This article mentions the spread of Kurgan Bell Beaker people from Jutland to Norway.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  13. #28
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    Having thought about this, I think a mistake we all may be guilty of is that P312 had to arrive in Norway either 1) with the Bell Beakers, or 2) during more modern times, from the Viking Age to the medieval and modern periods. There are almost a couple of thousand years between these two choices, from the Bronze to the Migration Ages. I don't think we know a great deal about migratory events in Scandinavia during that period.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 04-10-2018 at 11:27 PM.

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  15. #29
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    So, who would have brought P312 to Norway before Bell Beaker?
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    So, who would have brought P312 to Norway before Bell Beaker?
    I'm talking about the period between Bell Beaker and the Migration Age. So perhaps P312 may not have got to Norway or Sweden as early as the Beakers, but at a later date from descendants of Jutland or other Beaker settlements.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 04-10-2018 at 11:31 PM.

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