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Thread: R1b-DF27 Phylogeny (SNP based family tree)

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb R1b-DF27 Phylogeny (SNP based family tree)

    I've created a separate descendency tree graphic for DF27. I'll keep it posted on this URL so you can bookmark it. I'll try to keep this graphic current. It is the Y DNA tree/phylogeny for DF27 and subclades. I need help, though, to stay abreast the newly discovered SNPs and where they fit in.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...dency_Tree.jpg

    FTDNA's haplotree is way behind so for source data for the graphic I use International Society of Genetic Genealogy's (ISOGG) Y haplogroup R tree at
    http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    Another source of data is FTDNA's lab director Thomas Krahn and the draft tree he posts for DF27.
    http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?nam...arent=99813460

    Of course, another source is new news from our R1b-P312 project Y DNS SNP report screen. I check it about once a week.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp

    I'll also check the SRY2627/L176.2 and L165 projects, but do so only occasionally.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    It's okay to be in more that one project, so it helps me keep things updated if you join the R1b-P312 project at this link.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/

    Henry Zenker, the P312 project admin is a good source of info too, along with our citizen-science research team.

    Is there anyone that creates a comparison table of newly discovered SNPs from WTY/Geno 2.0 (raw) results for DF27? This is critical. Here is an example of what David Reynolds does for L21: http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L21.pdf
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-27-2013 at 10:12 PM.

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    I did some fine tuning based on the input and here is what I have now. Look okay? I can't find much information on Z198. Is it really approximate to L176.2?

    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-DF27-Tree
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-13-2013 at 08:54 PM.

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     Humanist (04-28-2013),  Rick (05-01-2013),  thetick (04-28-2013)

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    Great post. I'm SRY 2627+. I should probably get the Gen2.0 test since I suspect my SRY2627 A1 cluster probably has a unidentified SNP downstream.

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    Here is the latest update.
    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-DF27-Tree
    Last edited by TigerMW; 07-09-2013 at 03:00 PM.

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    Below is the latest update. I've moved DF81 up. There still remains testing to be done but I think it will make ISOGG. A Mr. Uriarte contacted me to let me know.
    259851 Uriarte DF27+, DF79-, DF81+, DF83-, DF84-, L1231-, L1245-, L194-, L617-, L86.2-, L881-, Z196-, Z225-
    B3142 Z˙˝iga DF27+, DF79-, DF81+, DF83-, DF84-, Z196-, Z209-, Z220-, Z225-, Z229-

    Is anyone pursuing ISOGG qualifications for this?

    I think these guys are potentially Basque, but they have branched away from the Z220+ M153+ long ago. That indicates some diversity, which keeps Iberia and/or South France as critical to understanding DF27's origin. I guess that's for another thread though.

    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-DF27-Tree
    Last edited by TigerMW; 07-16-2013 at 01:47 PM.

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    What is the placement of Z215, Z268, and Z274?

    This was posted today on another forum in response to this question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Webb
    all three were placed by Richard Rocca as approximate to Z209 when he did his research with the 1000 genomes project. Z268 was chosen to replace Z209 in the Geno 2.0 test, Henry Zenker wasn't quite sure why. The other two have not been confirmed as far as placement. They are probably somewhere between Z209 and Z220, but until someone ends up having one as either a terminal or as beginning a new branch, such as Z295 beginning the branch for the L484 guys, it's hard to say. Henry and I corresponded via email quite often and he explained to me that when Richard Rocca placed these snps, he wasn't quite sure where they went, so he clustered them around a snp that had a known placement.
    We've already heard that FTDNA is not likely to develop an a la carte test for Z210 so it is just additional info, not really helpful for the official phylogenetic trees.

    I'd like to know about why Z268 was chosen as a substitute for Z209 or what exactly that means. On ISOGG, Z268 is not listed as equivalent to Z209. It is just listed in their SNP index as under "investigation."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    What is the placement of Z215, Z268, and Z274?

    This was posted today on another forum in response to this question.


    We've already heard that FTDNA is not likely to develop an a la carte test for Z210 so it is just additional info, not really helpful for the official phylogenetic trees.

    I'd like to know about why Z268 was chosen as a substitute for Z209 or what exactly that means. On ISOGG, Z268 is not listed as equivalent to Z209. It is just listed in their SNP index as under "investigation."
    Here's a thought. Just like replacing Z195 for Z196. Maybe the goal of placing these "new" snps on the list to test for was a test in itself. If you have a list of snps and you think you know roughly where they are, the more people you can get to test for them might help you figure where they really belong.

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    Also, Z274 is somewhere between Z195/Z196 and Z268/Z209. So if DF17 people are testing positive for Z274 then that is possibly the location of where they break off.

    1st Edit: Mike, I went back and looked at my spreadsheet and I one individual who is Z195+ and Z274+. There are no other Z series snps in the results. My guess is this individual is in actuality DF17. So I'm pretty sure that DF17 broke off just before Z209.

    2nd Edit: I confirmed that the one DF17 Geno test I have access to at Semargl is positive for Z274. So DF17 actually broke off at Z274, or thereabouts, which as of now is right above Z209.
    Last edited by Webb; 07-15-2013 at 01:38 PM.

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    B. Webb, I can't "reply" to what Mike quotes you as saying (it disappears), but I believe it is CTS4065 and not Z295 that "leads" to L484+ (and to other guys who are L484-, but are Z295+ -- like all those other guys, such as Z216, Z278, M153). That mostly Iberian fork under Z295 may be defined by CTS 12074, though I'm not sure the case has been proven. I suspect it could be -- and if so, CTS12074 should also be in Mike's chart. There may be somebody out there who proves whether CTS12074 is above Z216 etc. I haven't yet had time to work on it much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    B. Webb, I can't "reply" to what Mike quotes you as saying (it disappears), but I believe it is CTS4065 and not Z295 that "leads" to L484+ (and to other guys who are L484-, but are Z295+ -- like all those other guys, such as Z216, Z278, M153). That mostly Iberian fork under Z295 may be defined by CTS 12074, though I'm not sure the case has been proven. I suspect it could be -- and if so, CTS12074 should also be in Mike's chart. There may be somebody out there who proves whether CTS12074 is above Z216 etc. I haven't yet had time to work on it much.
    My plan is once I think I have the Geno "Z" series snps roughly figured out, I am going to go back and track the "CTS" series snps and start comparing them.

    Edit: I checked my notes and CTS12074 is the snp I noticed that the "Iberian" fork carries. Henry thought it was right around Z278, maybe just upstream. Please see my post above about DF17. I think it is huge. Huge, I tell you.
    Last edited by Webb; 07-15-2013 at 01:36 PM.

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