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Thread: Bellonid branch of R1a (?)

  1. #1
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    Question Bellonid branch of R1a (?)

    FTDNA R1a Project has the following Spanish guy:

    kit 181201, Spain, he revealed his surname: Roco

    He claims to descended from Bello of Carcassone:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bello_of_Carcassonne

    Bello of Carcassone founded the Bellonid dynasty:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellonids

    This Roco guy - kit 181201 - belongs to YP1144 (one of subclades of Z280):

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1144/

    ^ As I can see, YFull has also a Polish guy with this subclade (id: YF03327).

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  3. #2
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    Id: YF03327 is a basal R-YP1144* from Poland:



    Here is kit 181201 in the Anousim DNA Project:



    And in R1a Project, he claims descent from Bello:


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    Excellent research, Tomenable. Best argument yet for some intermixing between Balts and Goths.

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    But is this Roco really descended from Bello of Carcassone?

    I guess he found a member of the Bellonid dynasty in his genealogical tree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But is this Roco really descended from Bello of Carcassone?
    Hard to prove, I imagine. Plenty of room for slip-ups in that many generations, even if the paper trail looks solid. But this is still tantalising.

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    Which branch is directly ancestral to YP1144 ??? Apparently Y2902:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2902/

    It seems that our "Bello of Carcassone" is related to few Sardinians:

    https://s32.postimg.org/fznponx9x/Be..._Sardinian.png


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    Sardinians with R1a-Z283 from Francalacci 2013:

    1) Six samples of R1a-M458, including:

    - 5 samples of PF7521 subclade ("Rytel Clan" branch) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7521/
    - 1 sample of L1029 subclade (Waldemar's branch ) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

    2) Five samples of R1a-Z280, including:

    - 3 samples of Y1396 subclade (see my post above) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y1396/
    - 1 sample of CTS4648 subclade (looks rather Baltic) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS4648/
    - 1 sample of YP372, a branch of YP371 (part of YP340) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP340/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    FTDNA R1a Project has the following Spanish guy:

    kit 181201, Spain, he revealed his surname: Roco

    He claims to descended from Bello of Carcassone:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bello_of_Carcassonne

    Bello of Carcassone founded the Bellonid dynasty:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellonids

    This Roco guy - kit 181201 - belongs to YP1144 (one of subclades of Z280):
    You should also add that YP1144 is a relatively large subclade under the so-called Volga-Carpathian clade Y2902, quite strongly associated with deep Early Slavic ancestry. YP1144 is a part of a "Western" subclade Y3226 that seems to be most common in the Carpathian region and in the West Balkans, while its equally large (or even larger) brother clade Y2910 is common among the Eastern Slavs (especially in Russia).

    Importantly, kit 181201 belongs to a quite large downstream subclade PH3519, and more specifically to an STR-defined cluster PH3519-B3 that includes also three members of family Velikonja from Slovenia. It seems almost certain that they share a common ancestor in the post-Gothic times, although this needs to be verified by further testing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^ As I can see, YFull has also a Polish guy with this subclade (id: YF03327).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Id: YF03327 is a basal R-YP1144* from Poland:
    YF03327 is kit N48984 from FTDNA and his ancestral surname is Czetyrbok, so this lineage seems to be of Ukrainian (rather than Polish) ancestry. Also, he belongs to a very specific STR-defined cluster under YP1144 (ie. to a potential brother clade of PH3519) that includes people of Ukrainian, Slovak, German and possibly Lithuanian ancestry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Best argument yet for some intermixing between Balts and Goths.
    In this particular case, a potential Baltic origin seems to be rather doubtful. There are some Italian cases of L366, YP335 or even YP573* and YP4648 that are slightly more likely to correspond to such a hypothetical Baltic->Gothic->Italian connection.
    Last edited by Michał; 08-05-2016 at 11:04 PM.

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  18. #10
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    If the paper trial supports that Roco is descended from Bellonids, then how likely is an NPE involving PH3519-B3? An NPE taking place in Spain is dozens of times more likely to involve R1b than a rare R1a subclade.

    That's why probably there was no NPE and this lineage is really descended from some of the Bellonids.

    Unless he invented the whole story, and doesn't have any paper trial confirming his Bellonid ancestry.

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