Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: Russian birch-bark letters, Beriastenniye Gramoty.

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    40
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a_CTS1211_YP1019
    mtDNA (M)
    H28a

    Russia Imperial Russian Federation Greece Finland

    Post Russian birch-bark letters, Beriastenniye Gramoty.

    http://gramoty.ru/ (RUS)
    The basic info is alright.
    The discovery was during excavation.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_bark_manuscript
    I was not aware of a Tibetan tech analogue.
    The literate language at the time was the religious Old Church Slavonic
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
    to homogenize the multitude of dialects.
    Correspondence is everyday affairs of ordinary folks.
    Girls, a thousand years ago, the literacy rate of an ordinary girl in the eastern-Slavic lands, may have been 99.5%. Though after that it was a slide down through the christian orthodoxy and till social-democracy (communism) times.
    Edit:
    http://www.schaeken.nl/lu/research/index.htm
    Last edited by kosmonomad; 08-09-2016 at 12:19 AM.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to kosmonomad For This Useful Post:

     dp (08-09-2016),  Táltos (08-07-2016),  Tomenable (08-07-2016)

  3. #2
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,718
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmonomad View Post
    The discovery was during excavation.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_bark_manuscript
    The article mentions:
    ---
    In Ukraine, birch bark documents were found in Zvenyhorod, Volynia. In Belarus, several documents were unearthed in Vitebsk and Mstislavl.
    ---

    Volhynia/Volynia is in western Ukraine, immediately adjacent to Poland.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     Táltos (08-07-2016)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    40
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a_CTS1211_YP1019
    mtDNA (M)
    H28a

    Russia Imperial Russian Federation Greece Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The article mentions:
    ---
    In Ukraine, birch bark documents were found in Zvenyhorod, Volynia. In Belarus, several documents were unearthed in Vitebsk and Mstislavl.
    ---

    Volhynia/Volynia is in western Ukraine, immediately adjacent to Poland.
    I know what you are referring to. That is still an Eastern Slavic event. If you find anything Western Slavic, please tell. That is still Rus'.

    Yes, we were lucky with the natural qualities of soil of northern territories, that preserved the bark material.

    It is the language of the letters - the natural everyday speech, like "I forgot my shirt, bring it".

  6. #4
    Banned
    Posts
    1,665
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmonomad View Post
    I know what you are referring to. That is still an Eastern Slavic event. If you find anything Western Slavic, please tell. That is still Rus'.

    Yes, we were lucky with the natural qualities of soil of northern territories, that preserved the bark material.

    It is the language of the letters - the natural everyday speech, like "I forgot my shirt, bring it".
    Most birch-barks around Novgorod are dated after 11-12th centuries. There was no Rus state by that time. There was a Novgorodian Republic. Even before 11th century Rus was a loose political state
    --

    The soil around Novgorod is favourable in preserving birch-bark material. The dialect recorded on birch-barks around Novgorod was a separate dialect. It was quite different to dialects spoken around Suzdal-Rostov (Moscow region). Some linguists consider Novgorod dialect a separate Slavic branch. Leading authority on Novgorodian dialect Zalezniak found many west Slavic elements in Novgorodian dialect. Novgorod republic was a different state destroyed by semi-Tatar Moscow principality in the 15th century. A bit later Moscow principality was making constant incursions into Lithuania burning Vitsebsk, Polotsk and other cities. The constant threat of Muscovites led Lithuania to ally with Kingdom of Poland establishing a Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.
    Last edited by Volat; 08-09-2016 at 03:19 AM.

  7. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    40
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a_CTS1211_YP1019
    mtDNA (M)
    H28a

    Russia Imperial Russian Federation Greece Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Most birch-barks around Novgorod are dated after 11-12th centuries. There was no Rus state by that time. There was a Novgorodian Republic. Even before 11th century Rus was a loose political state
    Yes, by 1150 Rus' was effectively dead, ruined by religious christian civil war. The Novgorodian Republic degenerated eventually into oligarchy, poisoned with a number of christian sects.
    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    The soil around Novgorod is favourable in preserving birch-bark material. The dialect recorded on birch-barks around Novgorod was a separate dialect. It was quite different to dialects spoken around Suzdal-Rostov (Moscow region). Some linguists consider Novgorod dialect a separate Slavic branch.
    Yep, it was, likely, western-Slavic, Sorbian-like originally
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs
    or possibly Rugian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCgen. There is even a sort of autosomal evidence for such inflow in the region. Yet, the modern Russian appears to have inherited its verb tenses system. Which means integration with that type of speech and people into the Russian society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Leading authority on Novgorodian dialect Zalezniak found many west Slavic elements in Novgorodian dialect.
    The guy that originates Slavs in the 9th century? Whatever.
    At the time three Slavic dialects existed: Western, Eastern, Southern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Novgorod republic was a different state destroyed by semi-Tatar Moscow principality in the 15th century.
    Novgorod was one of the original Rus' principalities, if not The One. It was the place where the varyag Rus' man - Riurik himself, came from. The founder of the first ruling dynasty.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik_dynasty
    Yep, I am that sort of semi-Tatarian component, as you called it. LOL. Boo-haha. I am an obvious Fatyanovian local, the original Volga-Oka river type. The original Moskvich. The pre-Slavic, Balto-Slavic for 4500 years at least. Plus archaic dialects, Vologda-type, which were not too different to Sanskrit, hehe. I like it. My line spread from Finland to Caspian, from Carpathians to Urals and Altay.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatyan...lanovo_culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    A bit later Moscow principality was making constant incursions into Lithuania burning Vitsebsk, Polotsk and other cities. The constant threat of Muscovites led Lithuania to ally with Kingdom of Poland establishing a Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.
    Whatever makes your boat rock. Those areas crumbled. They had the chance to make life good to everyone.
    Rus' was restoring itself.

  8. #6
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,718
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmonomad View Post
    Yep, it was, likely, western-Slavic, Sorbian-like originally
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs
    or possibly Rugian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCgen. There is even a sort of autosomal evidence for such inflow in the region.
    This research paper found that of 114 men in Pinega (Arkhangelsk region), 31.6% belonged to R-M458. The Arkhangelsk region was reportedly colonized by the Novgorod Republic.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     Waldemar (08-23-2016)

  10. #7
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA (M)
    H 47

    @ Kosmonomad

    "At the time three Slavic dialects existed: Western, Eastern, Southern."

    I'd think they were still in the realms of mutual intelligibility

    Re: west Slavic features in Novgorod
    Pritsak argued that the 'core Rus' imported Baltic Slavs to the east, which might account for such features and the ethonyms Krivici (<-Krieve< - Hreid <- Gotar); as in they came from areas once occupied by Goths

  11. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    40
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a_CTS1211_YP1019
    mtDNA (M)
    H28a

    Russia Imperial Russian Federation Greece Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    This research paper found that of 114 men in Pinega (Arkhangelsk region), 31.6% belonged to R-M458. The Arkhangelsk region was reportedly colonized by the Novgorod Republic.
    Just you wait. A huge lot about R1a-M458 is coming up on two fronts. Shacking grounds so much. Arkhangelsk is a minor issue.

  12. #9
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,718
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmonomad View Post
    Shacking grounds so much.
    I don't understand this phrase, and I'm a native American English speaker.

  13. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    40
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a_CTS1211_YP1019
    mtDNA (M)
    H28a

    Russia Imperial Russian Federation Greece Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    I don't understand this phrase, and I'm a native American English speaker.
    And ya ne care about speaking Angliskiy lately.
    Have new in works. West-East much. Should enjoy. Have a nice day.
    Well, for example, my lineage came up with some very eastern affinity for a branch.
    Last edited by kosmonomad; 09-28-2016 at 10:24 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Russian and Polish R1a-Z93*
    By lgmayka in forum R1a-Z93
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 08-10-2018, 07:07 PM
  2. Russian/Siberian ancestry!
    By Herb. in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-14-2016, 09:39 AM
  3. The Romanov dynasty (not quite Russian)
    By Mamluk in forum History (Modern)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-22-2015, 06:02 AM
  4. Scientists to map the Russian genome
    By rock hunter in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-03-2015, 02:11 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •