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Thread: Where did DF27 originate? and when and how did it expand?

  1. #1
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    Where did DF27 originate? and when and how did it expand?

    A couple of years ago DF27 was unknown and it just appeared in the paragroup P312*, it's ancestor.

    DF27 is a large clade and is spread out into a number of subclades including the M153+ Basques, who happen to be a subclade of the Z209+ North-South cluster. Z209 is scattered from north to south (or south to north.) We also have L176.2 which can be broken further into the large SRY2627 group as well as L165, which EthnoAncestry tags as Norse. SRY2627 has been considered Iberian by many, but not every SRY2627 is Iberian, for sure.

    This graphic shows you the branching of R1b-DF27 as I understand it.
    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-DF27-Tree
    Last edited by Mikewww; 06-06-2013 at 02:27 AM.

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  3. #2
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    Where the first carrier of DF27 originated is impossible to say at this moment. Regarding expansion, I should point out the following data:

    DF27 Haplogroup Variance by Region @25 STRs

    Iberia: n=97 var=1.15
    Britain & Ireland: n=285 var=1.11
    Germany: n=34 var=1.09
    Italy: n=7 var=1.07
    France: n=56 var=1.02
    Switzerland: n=4 var=0.88
    Low Countries: n=12 var=0.77

    If we take radio carbon data into account which tells us the earliest Bell Beakers occurred in Iberia, an out-of-Iberia DF27 expansion becomes even more intriguing. Finally, if we take the definition of the North South cluster as one with a Northern and Southern coastal distribution, it aligns with the expansion of Maritime Bell Beakers along the Atlantic and Mediterranean coasts. Maritime Bell Beaker cluster seems more appropriate at this time than North-South cluster. There has finally been an Iberian L165 sample found, which would mean the 10x Isles sample bias may be in play.

    If we look at the variance of DF27's siblings, we see that they are younger than DF27 and may have been involved in the later Bell Beaker reflux expansions. The ordering of variance (1. DF27 2. U152 3. L21) is also a good match for radio carbon dating that shows Bell Beaker age as oldest in Iberia/S. France/N. Italy and then progressively younger as one goes north and east.

    Overall Haplogroup Variance @25 STRs

    DF27 All: n=710 var=1.17
    U152 All: n=991 var=1.09
    L21 All: n=5960 var=0.93

    Please note that I used Mike's variance spreadsheet at 25 STRs to get enough samples. I find that the regional data jumps less when using more samples than very few samples at 67 markers.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 04-21-2013 at 12:11 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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    There are now at least four confirmed DF83 individuals. One that has scottish ancestry, one English, one French, and of course, one......wait for it.......Spanish. Asturias to be exact. So, assuming that Richards assessment is correct. The low numbers in the isles in comparison to L21 could be that these DF27 groups acted much like the Vikings. Staying close to ports, and being more interested in trade and networking than large scale settlement. There seems to be more significant numbers and clade variation in Britain than Ireland as well.

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    SRY2627/Z207

    Pitcairn Botswana French Southern and Antarctic Lands Uganda Ayyubid Dynasty Niger
    Definitely, not all SRY2627 is Iberian but where it clusters the most is technically or least in a geophysical sense is around or near the headwaters of the Garonne and Segre Rivers. Technically both rivers do not have their sources in Iberia. Also, Val d'Aran should be considered as being in Northern Europe.

    Arch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch View Post
    Definitely, not all SRY2627 is Iberian but where it clusters the most is technically or least in a geophysical sense is around or near the headwaters of the Garonne and Segre Rivers. Technically both rivers do not have their sources in Iberia. Also, Val d'Aran should be considered as being in Northern Europe.

    Arch
    Welcome to the forums Alan.

    The three closest cities to the Val d'Aran (Toulouse, Barcelona and Bilbao) are all much closer culturally to the Mediterranean than Northern Europe.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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    SRY2627/Z207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Welcome to the forums Alan.

    The three closest cities to the Val d'Aran (Toulouse, Barcelona and Bilbao) are all much closer culturally to the Mediterranean than Northern Europe.
    Yes, however. Toulouse/Tolosa has a more ancient influence on Val d'Aran than both cities in Spain. Toulouse has an influence that is intermediate between the Atlantic and Mediterranean. Narbonne being the Mediterranean connection with the Celts and Bordeaux or Bordigula with the Aquitani and later Biturges Cubi. I'm not seeing much of an Iberian influence in Val d'Aran. Obviously in modernity we have the Spanish and Catalan influence, but long before Val d'Aran was a part of Catalonia since the 1100s it has been under the influence of Comminges and regions north. Barcelona is over 4 hours away by car, Toulouse is nearly 3 hours by car. So I can't say Barcelona had much of an influence on Val d'Aran until the rise of the Hispania Marcia around 700-800 AD and even then it was fairly loose or had very little impact due to the great distance and the valley's isolation. Even the Comminges seems to have little influence in the region. What we do see is a remnant of Bell Beaker artifacts from a much earlier time during the Late Bronze Age and it tapers off towards the Neolithic dolmens on the other side (Iberian) side of the Pyrenees around St. Maurici region. For the most part, the passes of the Pyrenees into Iberia have cut off the Aran Valley from the south well into Spring due to snow, etc. Even today, there is really only one pass (excluding the Vielha tunnel) called the Bonaigua Pass that allows access to the south and it's not necessarily an easy way to get into the other comarcas of Catalonia. The Pla de Beret is really a long and round about way. However it is possible but very isolated. The Central Pyrenees for the most part seem isolated from Barcelona and Toulouse with their own long and ancient traditions that are strongly held in place today.

    Arch

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    SRY2627/Z207

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    In addition we must not forget. Catalonia's early history is derived from the Visigoths through the House of Barcelona. Even though the Franks defeated them at the Battle of Vouille in around 507/508 AD, the Visigoths held Barcelona in greater antiquity than we are led to believe. It was an important city well before the kingdom of the Visigoths took full effect. Catalonia's history starts in Septimania or what is now consider Old Catalonia or North Catalonia (Rousillon). This region does have a strong Mediterranean influence that could very well be Iberian since we know that influence did stretch north towards Marseilles. Of course, we can't forget many years of Celtic tribes in the region such as the Arecomi, Tectosages, etc. I think this may be a stretch, but Celtic influence in the region was probably no earlier than 800 BCE. The age of SRY2627 being an estimated 3,500 years old pushes that possibility of being risen among the culture of the Celts is pretty remote, at least for this region. So we end up back with an Iberian expansion into Northern Europe and I don't believe it only happened on the coast of the Mediterranean but also along the coast of the Atlantic perhaps reaching as far as modern day Britain and perhaps as far as Scandinavia. We are not given Iberians the credit they are due for their ability to travel and trade. Hopefully we can shed more light on the Iberians, because for the many years of ignorance about them and the lack of education about who they really were is pretty dreadful.

    Arch

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    Dick H has some interesting thoughts about the breakpoint where GataH4 may have moved from the P312 modal and probably DF27 ancestral value of H4=11 to H4=10.

    H4 is a key element of the 437=14 448=18 H4=10 STR signature that is known as the North-South Cluster.

    You might look at this descendency tree for DF27 as you read the below.
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...dency_Tree.jpg

    Dick's speculation is that Z209 and Z220 still had H4=11 but by the time Z210 or Z216 occurred the H4=10 mutation occurred.

    How is this relevant to the origin of DF27? Well, we might see that the non-North-South cluster Z209+ brothers are found to the north. We know the most youthful branch of the North-South cluster is the M153, the Basque marker.

    I'm not sure that makes anything certain, but it is another data point.

    The reason I'm not sure that means too much is we also have DF27* (Z209- Z196-) guys in the south, Iberia.

    I think another shoe will drop in DF27 and I think that shoe is DF83. Not sure which way it will fall though. We've also got L881 and L617 up there as peers to Z196 right under DF27.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 04-30-2013 at 02:34 AM.

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    Mike, I posted in a different forum that I match two separate families at 37 markers. I match Wilders at 37 markers steps 1 through 3. They are from Shiplake, England. At 37 markers step 4, I match five Vanderhoof's. I loose the Vanderhoof's at 67 markers and at that point only match the Wilders. I sort of ignored the Vanderhoof's until very recently one tested positive for Z220. They are from the Netherlands and the tip sheet has us having a common ancestor at 87% at 24 generations. That could be refined more I'm sure. So to get back to my point, Z196 might have had a very early exodus out of Iberia heading north and spreading out through the North Sea coasts. If that's the case, then the Z196 clades could have back migrated at any number of periods with any number of groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Mike, I posted in a different forum that I match two separate families at 37 markers. I match Wilders at 37 markers steps 1 through 3. They are from Shiplake, England. At 37 markers step 4, I match five Vanderhoof's. I loose the Vanderhoof's at 67 markers and at that point only match the Wilders. I sort of ignored the Vanderhoof's until very recently one tested positive for Z220. They are from the Netherlands and the tip sheet has us having a common ancestor at 87% at 24 generations. That could be refined more I'm sure. So to get back to my point, Z196 might have had a very early exodus out of Iberia heading north and spreading out through the North Sea coasts. If that's the case, then the Z196 clades could have back migrated at any number of periods with any number of groups.
    What do you think brought Z196 on that path? I guess the default answer is Bell Beaker folks.

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