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Thread: Where did DF27 originate? and when and how did it expand?

  1. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    We know from the Martiniano pre-print that P312+ had reach Portugal by at least the Middle Bronze Age.
    Olalde et al. 2018 has Iberian Bell Beaker specimen I6539 as P312+ and radiocarbon dated to 2500–2000 BCE. I5665 is also from Iberian Bell Beaker and P312+ and radiocarbon dated to 2280–1984 calBCE. Aren't those Early Bronze Age and therefore older than the Martiniano specimen?

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  3. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Olalde et al. 2018 has Iberian Bell Beaker specimen I6539 as P312+ and radiocarbon dated to 2500–2000 BCE. I5665 is also from Iberian Bell Beaker and P312+ and radiocarbon dated to 2280–1984 calBCE. Aren't those Early Bronze Age and therefore older than the Martiniano specimen?
    Yes, but none of the Olalde paper's Portuguese samples were R1b, so that's why I mentioned that by the Middle Bronze Age, we already have a spread of P312 from NE to the SW of the peninsula.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 03-13-2018 at 04:05 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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  5. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Yes, but none of the Olalde paper's Portuguese samples were R1b, so that's why I mentioned that by the Middle Neolithic, we already have a spread of P312 from NE to the SW of the peninsula.
    Don't you mean, Middle Bronze Age? That's not any kind of Neolithic.

    I'm trying to stay out of this, and let the guys who know what they are doing just do it. I6539 wasn't on my checklist, but I did add I6537, as one of the ZZ11+ samples identified by Alex a few days ago. In case they are from the same cemetery, or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Don't you mean, Middle Bronze Age? That's not any kind of Neolithic.

    I'm trying to stay out of this, and let the guys who know what they are doing just do it. I6539 wasn't on my checklist, but I did add I6537, as one of the ZZ11+ samples identified by Alex a few days ago. In case they are from the same cemetery, or whatever.
    Yes, I changed it to say Middle Bronze Age.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Yes, but none of the Olalde paper's Portuguese samples were R1b, so that's why I mentioned that by the Middle Bronze Age, we already have a spread of P312 from NE to the SW of the peninsula.
    Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if P312 wasn't already in Portugal in the Early Bronze Age. Are there too few burials found so far in Portugal in the Early Bronze Age to expect to find enough specimens that at least could get a read for P312?
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 03-13-2018 at 06:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if P312 wasn't already in Portugal in the Early Bronze Age. Are there too few burials found so far in Portugal in the Early Bronze Age to expect to find enough specimens that at least could get a read for P312?
    I suspect the final classification will be something like:

    Early Portuguese Bell Beaker
    Y-DNA: non-M269
    Metallurgic Age: Late Copper Age

    Early Steppe Derived Bell Beaker
    Y-DNA: M269 and more specifically P312
    Metallurgic Age: Early Bronze Age
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 03-14-2018 at 03:43 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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  11. #627
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    Sample esp005 is as follows:

    DF27+ BY15964+ BY15965+ 22255193+ 14603177- BY15963? Y24895?
    Y24894- 22317162-

    11 of 13 samples on the YTree.net have Iberian surnames and the other two English.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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  13. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Sample esp005 is as follows:

    DF27+ BY15964+ BY15965+ 22255193+ 14603177- BY15963? Y24895?
    Y24894- 22317162-

    11 of 13 samples on the YTree.net have Iberian surnames and the other two English.
    Cool. And, if there weren't a testing bias there would be more Iberian surnames. Another amazing thing is that the BY15964 block has the very widespread de la Garza lineage from northern Mexico. http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1846


    Changing the subject, do you think you have time to check Roman solder FN_2 for Y-DNA SNPs from the Bavarian study that plots with Spaniards and Basques? The BAM file is at https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/SAMEA104354396
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 03-16-2018 at 03:46 AM.

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  15. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Sample esp005 is as follows:

    DF27+ BY15964+ BY15965+ 22255193+ 14603177- BY15963? Y24895?
    Y24894- 22317162-

    11 of 13 samples on the YTree.net have Iberian surnames and the other two English.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Cool. And, if there weren't a testing bias there would be more Iberian surnames.
    But this is one block of three (so far) below ZZ51. The Iain McDonald estimates suggest it's the youngest of the three. And the other two blocks are richer in English; one of them, indeed, has a branch that appears to lean toward Belarus/Poland. Where, sadly, we have a negative sampling bias.

    Given the cultural context of esp005 (no carbon date, but perhaps circa 1700 BC), I suspect these McDonald age estimates from last October are still on the young side. Be that as it may, the find certainly suggests that this most Iberian of the branches of DF27>ZZ12>ZZ51 currently known had established itself there before the middle of the second millennium. That just leaves about a thousand years to make it pertinent to the first question asked in this thread's subject line. It's good for the "when did it expand" part.

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  17. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    But this is one block of three (so far) below ZZ51. The Iain McDonald estimates suggest it's the youngest of the three. And the other two blocks are richer in English; one of them, indeed, has a branch that appears to lean toward Belarus/Poland. Where, sadly, we have a negative sampling bias.

    Given the cultural context of esp005 (no carbon date, but perhaps circa 1700 BC), I suspect these McDonald age estimates from last October are still on the young side. Be that as it may, the find certainly suggests that this most Iberian of the branches of DF27>ZZ12>ZZ51 currently known had established itself there before the middle of the second millennium. That just leaves about a thousand years to make it pertinent to the first question asked in this thread's subject line. It's good for the "when did it expand" part.
    I agree. The only thing this tells us is that the BY15964 et al. subclade was in Iberia by the Middle Bronze Age. BTW, looking at the number of project members in FTDNA's IberianDNA and Poland projects, there is no sampling bias. If anything, it looks like more Polish-Americans test than Hispanic-Americans.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 03-16-2018 at 02:07 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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