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Thread: Why do people of Western European descent contrast k13 and k15 results ?

  1. #21
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    I think people place too much faith in these calculators. All my family are Irish born and I've traced back to the late 1700s.

    Eurogenes K13

     

    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 52.04
    2 Baltic 25.27
    3 West_Med 9.81
    4 West_Asian 7.25
    5 East_Med 1.77
    6 Red_Sea 1.50
    7 Amerindian 1.38


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 North_Dutch @ 3.343981
    2 Irish @ 3.397813
    3 West_Scottish @ 4.026271
    4 Norwegian @ 4.042346
    5 Orcadian @ 4.244986
    6 Danish @ 4.289660
    7 North_German @ 6.192955
    8 Southeast_English @ 6.842666
    9 Southwest_English @ 6.901150
    10 Swedish @ 7.318733
    11 South_Dutch @ 11.629003
    12 West_German @ 12.655422
    13 North_Swedish @ 14.482445
    14 Austrian @ 17.549162
    15 East_German @ 17.693420
    16 French @ 18.062477
    17 Hungarian @ 22.544872
    18 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.876503
    19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.292759
    20 Southwest_French @ 27.316259

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +50% Norwegian @ 2.522953


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +25% Norwegian +25% Norwegian @ 2.522953


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.519424
    2 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.522953
    3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.540311
    4 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.548502
    5 Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.564251
    6 North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.622005
    7 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.648387
    8 Irish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.664680
    9 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.680890
    10 Danish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.683445
    11 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.695799
    12 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.721051
    13 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.729033
    14 Danish + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.747781
    15 Irish + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.753577
    16 Irish + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 2.764748
    17 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.766720
    18 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.767802
    19 Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.767981
    20 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 2.775764


    Eurogenes K15

     

    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 North_Sea 37.04
    2 Atlantic 29.88
    3 Baltic 11.89
    4 Eastern_Euro 8.75
    5 West_Asian 5.16
    6 West_Med 4.95
    7 Amerindian 1.15
    8 Red_Sea 1.10


    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Irish @ 3.425280
    2 West_Scottish @ 3.557808
    3 North_Dutch @ 4.181393
    4 Danish @ 4.453959
    5 Orcadian @ 5.505360
    6 Southeast_English @ 5.676529
    7 North_German @ 5.882824
    8 Southwest_English @ 7.466283
    9 Norwegian @ 8.417722
    10 West_Norwegian @ 8.735489
    11 Swedish @ 9.296607
    12 South_Dutch @ 11.184519
    13 West_German @ 12.499153
    14 North_Swedish @ 12.662151
    15 East_German @ 16.492691
    16 French @ 16.524723
    17 Southwest_Finnish @ 17.903034
    18 Austrian @ 21.142027
    19 Finnish @ 21.647963
    20 Hungarian @ 21.914810

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +50% North_Dutch @ 3.203073


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +25% North_Dutch +25% West_Scottish @ 3.143203


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Irish + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.125094
    2 North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.128713
    3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 3.143203
    4 Irish + Irish + North_German + Orcadian @ 3.144938
    5 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_Dutch @ 3.150105
    6 Irish + North_German + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.159487
    7 Irish + Irish + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.182833
    8 North_Dutch + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.183386
    9 Irish + North_Dutch + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.193700
    10 Irish + North_Dutch + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.195021
    11 North_German + Orcadian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.202463
    12 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch @ 3.203073
    13 Danish + Irish + Irish + North_Dutch @ 3.235043
    14 Danish + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 3.235556
    15 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 3.238354
    16 Danish + Irish + Irish + West_Scottish @ 3.248949
    17 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + North_German @ 3.252259
    18 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 3.254036
    19 Irish + North_Dutch + North_German + Orcadian @ 3.259177
    20 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_German @ 3.268316


    Dodecad K7b

     

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic_Baltic 75.57
    2 Southern 11.79
    3 West_Asian 11.51


    Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
    7 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Dutch @ 0.824186
    2 German @ 1.015227
    3 CEU30 @ 1.342423
    4 Mixed_Germanic @ 1.828916
    5 Kent @ 2.017205
    6 Cornwall @ 2.159553
    7 English @ 2.542099
    8 Argyll @ 2.849683
    9 Irish @ 2.982558
    10 British @ 3.136622
    11 British_Isles @ 3.313066
    12 Orcadian @ 3.439106
    13 Orkney @ 4.077042
    14 Ukranians @ 5.305907
    15 Mixed_Slav @ 5.785614
    16 Polish @ 6.044303
    17 Norwegian @ 6.928505
    18 Hungarians @ 7.715971
    19 Swedish @ 7.933496
    20 Belorussian @ 8.327584

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Dutch +50% German @ 0.584702


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Argyll +25% British +25% Hungarians @ 0.000000


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Argyll + Argyll + British + Hungarians @ 0.000000
    2 Argyll + Argyll + British_Isles + Hungarians @ 0.000000
    3 Argyll + Argyll + Hungarians + Irish @ 0.000000
    4 Argyll + CEU30 + Hungarians + Orkney @ 0.000000
    5 Argyll + Dutch + Hungarians + Orkney @ 0.000000
    6 Argyll + German + German + German @ 0.000000
    7 Argyll + Lithuanians + N_Italian + Norwegian @ 0.000000
    8 Belorussian + British_Isles + Lithuanians + North_Italian @ 0.000000
    9 Belorussian + Dutch + Dutch + French @ 0.000000
    10 Belorussian + Irish + Lithuanians + North_Italian @ 0.000000
    11 Belorussian + Lithuanians + North_Italian + Orcadian @ 0.000000
    12 British + Cornwall + Mixed_Germanic + Ukranians @ 0.000000
    13 British + English + Hungarians + Polish @ 0.000000
    14 British + Hungarians + Kent + Polish @ 0.000000
    15 British + Mixed_Germanic + Mixed_Germanic + Ukranians @ 0.000000
    16 British_Isles + English + Hungarians + Polish @ 0.000000
    17 British_Isles + Hungarians + Kent + Polish @ 0.000000
    18 British_Isles + Mixed_Germanic + Mixed_Germanic + Ukranians @ 0.000000
    19 CEU30 + CEU30 + Hungarians + Swedish @ 0.000000
    20 CEU30 + Cornwall + English + Ukranians @ 0.000000


    I have family members and they all get slightly different results.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leroy Jenkins View Post
    My results vary greatly between the 2 calculators. I'm super Celtic using K13 and I become more Germanic with the K15.
    Wow, Leroy, you look like you defected from Braveheart's army in K13 to Rollo's raiders in K15.

    My results shifting from SE English to W. Scottish give me quite a hoot as the Scottish-"Celtic" vs. Anglo-English divide, with roughly 60/40 English vs. Scottish surnames in family tree thus far, was one of my original test curiosities. Playing a Celtic folk harp could incite joy or strike fear depending on household borders in British history!

    Bette Davis Eye's results & comment had me doing my homework, as Randwulf suggested, & I found this comment by Eurogenes blogger that might also explain wide use of K13 on these forums even for non-Europeans:

    "For instance, the new K13 should be more useful for Central and South Asians than any of the others, because it features new reference samples relevant to them." So, don't take the "Euro"genes title too literally. Also the fact that it was made the default calculator on Gedmatch might contribute to its popularity, e.g. perhaps assumption that most testers will be fairly admixed so a lower K13 would give more reliable results. Further, I believe that one of the Eurogenes blogs also cautions against taking the results too literally if you were not in the original sample database. I can't find the post now, but I believe that Davidski warned that non-sample testers of otherwise British descent may look more continental than real, e.g. a slight calculator affect.

    I also came across this older but possibly still intriguing post on Eurogene's blog:

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/...nish-like.html
    Spanish-like Celts and Finnish-like Anglo-Saxons

    Update 9/10/2014: Analysis of an ancient genome from Hinxton

    "So in other words, the Iron Age Britons, presumably of Celtic origin, share inflated levels of rare (ie. low frequency) alleles with Spaniards. Conversely, the Anglo-Saxons are more Finnish-like. But I wouldn't read too much into this result, because Finns are the only northern European population from east of England in the 1000 Genomes project, so they're probably just acting as a proxy for gene flow from the far north of what is now Germany."
    ________________________

    I think that the Finnish proxy comment is relevant in regard to to Gaku's critique of assigning target populations for admixture calculators. In fact, I thought that the MDLP developer of new K13 Ultimate calculator was scolding those of us who compared it to Eurogenes K13 on another forum as "newbies", the inference being that MDLP was more NE-European oriented (he is from Baltic region) due to samples & algorithms more aligned to those populations.

    If you're of British descent or interested in British genetics, the rest of the post might be of interest in regard to how ancient samples may show up in modern K13 or K15 methodologies. However, the blog date is 2014 so it may not fully jive with POBI or other more recent findings.
    ______________________________
    "Interestingly, these signals aren't all that difficult to pick up in present-day English genomes. Below, for instance, are two sets of Eurogenes K15 ancestry proportions for English samples from Cornwall and Kent, respectively.

    Note that both groups are typically Northwest European. However, the English from Cornwall are clearly more West Med, while those from Kent slightly more North Sea, Baltic and Eastern Euro. The West Med component peaks in Sardinia, but also occurs at relatively high frequencies in Iberia, while the North Sea, Baltic and Eastern Euro components are well represented among the Finns.

    These differences aren't jaw dropping, but they're certainly noticeable. They also make prefect sense in the light of the ancient genomic data, because Cornwall is arguably one of the regions of the UK least affected by the Anglo-Saxon invasions. Kent, on the other hand, was settled by the Jutes during the 5th century. These people weren't Anglo-Saxons, but nonetheless a very similar Germanic tribe from the Jutland Peninsula."
    ____________________________

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  5. #23
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    What I have noticed with the calculators is that they really can't separate Celts from Anglo-Saxons (or Germanics). A person such as myself who is solely Irish (Celt) can show closer affinity to Germanic populations than some people with real ancestry from more Germanic regions.. It took me a while to comprehend this so now I find it odd that people are trying to see if they are more "Celtic" or more "Anglo-Saxon". Possibly ydna might be a better indicator but it isn't a hard and fast rule. Possibly with more finescale testing like the PoBI they might be able to do this. From what I've read about the Irish DNA Atlas they can actually tell what counties people are from which would be amazing. Unfortunately this isn't going to be released until at least next year so I hope I'm still alive when it comes out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnieD View Post
    Wow, Leroy, you look like you defected from Braveheart's army in K13 to Rollo's raiders in K15.

    My results shifting from SE English to W. Scottish give me quite a hoot as the Scottish-"Celtic" vs. Anglo-English divide, with roughly 60/40 English vs. Scottish surnames in family tree thus far, was one of my original test curiosities. Playing a Celtic folk harp could incite joy or strike fear depending on household borders in British history!

    Bette Davis Eye's results & comment had me doing my homework, as Randwulf suggested, & I found this comment by Eurogenes blogger that might also explain wide use of K13 on these forums even for non-Europeans:

    "For instance, the new K13 should be more useful for Central and South Asians than any of the others, because it features new reference samples relevant to them." So, don't take the "Euro"genes title too literally. Also the fact that it was made the default calculator on Gedmatch might contribute to its popularity, e.g. perhaps assumption that most testers will be fairly admixed so a lower K13 would give more reliable results. Further, I believe that one of the Eurogenes blogs also cautions against taking the results too literally if you were not in the original sample database. I can't find the post now, but I believe that Davidski warned that non-sample testers of otherwise British descent may look more continental than real, e.g. a slight calculator affect.

    I also came across this older but possibly still intriguing post on Eurogene's blog:

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/...nish-like.html
    Spanish-like Celts and Finnish-like Anglo-Saxons

    Update 9/10/2014: Analysis of an ancient genome from Hinxton

    "So in other words, the Iron Age Britons, presumably of Celtic origin, share inflated levels of rare (ie. low frequency) alleles with Spaniards. Conversely, the Anglo-Saxons are more Finnish-like. But I wouldn't read too much into this result, because Finns are the only northern European population from east of England in the 1000 Genomes project, so they're probably just acting as a proxy for gene flow from the far north of what is now Germany."
    ________________________

    I think that the Finnish proxy comment is relevant in regard to to Gaku's critique of assigning target populations for admixture calculators. In fact, I thought that the MDLP developer of new K13 Ultimate calculator was scolding those of us who compared it to Eurogenes K13 on another forum as "newbies", the inference being that MDLP was more NE-European oriented (he is from Baltic region) due to samples & algorithms more aligned to those populations.

    If you're of British descent or interested in British genetics, the rest of the post might be of interest in regard to how ancient samples may show up in modern K13 or K15 methodologies. However, the blog date is 2014 so it may not fully jive with POBI or other more recent findings.
    ______________________________
    "Interestingly, these signals aren't all that difficult to pick up in present-day English genomes. Below, for instance, are two sets of Eurogenes K15 ancestry proportions for English samples from Cornwall and Kent, respectively.

    Note that both groups are typically Northwest European. However, the English from Cornwall are clearly more West Med, while those from Kent slightly more North Sea, Baltic and Eastern Euro. The West Med component peaks in Sardinia, but also occurs at relatively high frequencies in Iberia, while the North Sea, Baltic and Eastern Euro components are well represented among the Finns.

    These differences aren't jaw dropping, but they're certainly noticeable. They also make prefect sense in the light of the ancient genomic data, because Cornwall is arguably one of the regions of the UK least affected by the Anglo-Saxon invasions. Kent, on the other hand, was settled by the Jutes during the 5th century. These people weren't Anglo-Saxons, but nonetheless a very similar Germanic tribe from the Jutland Peninsula."
    ____________________________
    Yes that Eurogenes Blog was interesting but it didn't turn out that the Celtic Hinxtons were more Spanish shifted. The Hinxton 4 was similar to present day Irish and Scots. The paper also said that the Anglo-Saxon samples where most similar to present day British when in fact it is the Celtic Hinxton 1 and 4 that were most similar but more to the Irish and Scots than the English.

    This is a quote from Davidski. "In terms of genome-wide genetic structure, Hinxton1 is most similar to present-day Orcadians, Irish, western Scots, Icelanders and western Norwegians, more or less in that order. However, it's fairly distinct from the modern inhabitants of England, or at least those in my datasets, who mostly come from Kent and Cornwall."

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...m-hinxton.html

    Here is more analysis on Hinxton 4 on the Eurogenes blog but you can read about all of them on that blog as well.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...ers389798.html

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    What I have noticed with the calculators is that they really can't separate Celts from Anglo-Saxons (or Germanics). A person such as myself who is solely Irish (Celt) can show closer affinity to Germanic populations than some people with real ancestry from more Germanic regions.. It took me a while to comprehend this so now I find it odd that people are trying to see if they are more "Celtic" or more "Anglo-Saxon". Possibly ydna might be a better indicator but it isn't a hard and fast rule. Possibly with more finescale testing like the PoBI they might be able to do this. From what I've read about the Irish DNA Atlas they can actually tell what counties people are from which would be amazing. Unfortunately this isn't going to be released until at least next year so I hope I'm still alive when it comes out.
    What part of Ireland if you don't mind me asking? I mean even if Ireland wasn't as readily invaded as England the Brits would have carried those invader genes over there. That's why certain regions in Ireland are swamped by rather Anglo-Saxon surnames.

    But I am curious as my great-grandmother comes from an old Irish family clan and well as she is still alive hopefully the Irish DNA Atlas might be more accurate than what other DNA sites try for.


    It isn't surprising though. 23&me for example can't apparently differ German or French if one's life depended upon it and of course the more "mushed" the closer one is to the Alsace / Rhineland. And like I said on page 2 I have supersized Scandinavian on eurogenes [and a few other calculators] which is likely due to my mother's mother's Orkney / Scottish background and not even remotely true recent Scandinavian ancestry.

  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaku View Post
    What part of Ireland if you don't mind me asking? I mean even if Ireland wasn't as readily invaded as England the Brits would have carried those invader genes over there. That's why certain regions in Ireland are swamped by rather Anglo-Saxon surnames.

    But I am curious as my great-grandmother comes from an old Irish family clan and well as she is still alive hopefully the Irish DNA Atlas might be more accurate than what other DNA sites try for.


    It isn't surprising though. 23&me for example can't apparently differ German or French if one's life depended upon it and of course the more "mushed" the closer one is to the Alsace / Rhineland. And like I said on page 2 I have supersized Scandinavian on eurogenes [and a few other calculators] which is likely due to my mother's mother's Orkney / Scottish background and not even remotely true recent Scandinavian ancestry.
    My brother gets Orcadian as his no 1 population on Eurogenes K15.

    My father's side was from Sligo/Roscommon so one of the most Irish areas relatively speaking. My mother was from North Tipperary.

    The Irish DNA Atlas should be very interesting when they finally get around to publishing it. One of the people involved said that he can now recognise what county people are from by their DNA so that sounds amazing if it is true.

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    eurogenes k13 is one of the best and most accurate calculators I think
    Last edited by Magnetic; 08-17-2016 at 12:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    eurogenes k13 is one of the best and most accurate calculators I think
    And Magnetic is of Turkish descent, I believe, so once again Eurogenes delivers strong results for a broad pool of testers, not just Western Euros. However, for me, this only deepens the suspense of why fully Irish such as Betty Davis Eyes and the half-dozen that a poster on another thread shared get more English or Dutch-Continental results than Irish.

    From Dutch results posted on a major DNA test co. forum, Dutch vs. British / Irish AC looked strikingly different on average to me. However, I haven't seem many Dutch Gedmatch results for cross-methodology analysis, i.e. shorter vs. longer segments tested? Perhaps it is due to the calculator effect of not being in original sample database or as others have suggested of late, a closely-related Bronze-Age population base, e.g. being the most far NW Atlantic Isle did not inhibit as much mingling as we thought. Or, perhaps we've just not seen enough nearly or fully Irish, English, Welsh, Scottish, etc. (for at least 200-300 yeas back) testers to determine if Betty Davis Eyes is a one-off, atypical. Thus far, I've only come across 1 tester who identified as fully European Welsh, but even he disappeared before we could get his AC out of him!

    I wonder if anyone has a lot of time on their hands, He He, & ever surveyed the Eurogenes K13 or K15 threads for how many find it to be a good fit for assumed or known ancestry? Survey says ... 72% of British heritage say that Eurogenes K13 nailed their Cornish AC. It's a keeper! LOL! I peak at it occasionally, but it seems that many posters do not delve into interpretation, only listing results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnieD View Post
    And Magnetic is of Turkish descent, I believe, so once again Eurogenes delivers strong results for a broad pool of testers, not just Western Euros. However, for me, this only deepens the suspense of why fully Irish such as Betty Davis Eyes and the half-dozen that a poster on another thread shared get more English or Dutch-Continental results than Irish.

    From Dutch results posted on a major DNA test co. forum, Dutch vs. British / Irish AC looked strikingly different on average to me. However, I haven't seem many Dutch Gedmatch results for cross-methodology analysis, i.e. shorter vs. longer segments tested? Perhaps it is due to the calculator effect of not being in original sample database or as others have suggested of late, a closely-related Bronze-Age population base, e.g. being the most far NW Atlantic Isle did not inhibit as much mingling as we thought. Or, perhaps we've just not seen enough nearly or fully Irish, English, Welsh, Scottish, etc. (for at least 200-300 yeas back) testers to determine if Betty Davis Eyes is a one-off, atypical. Thus far, I've only come across 1 tester who identified as fully European Welsh, but even he disappeared before we could get his AC out of him!

    I wonder if anyone has a lot of time on their hands, He He, & ever surveyed the Eurogenes K13 or K15 threads for how many find it to be a good fit for assumed or known ancestry? Survey says ... 72% of British heritage say that Eurogenes K13 nailed their Cornish AC. It's a keeper! LOL! I peak at it occasionally, but it seems that many posters do not delve into interpretation, only listing results.

    I feel the same way.

    After many months researching autosomal DNA, this Amerimutt is left with more questions than answers.

    Beyond general North and Central Euro ancestry that is.

    I think that may simply be the limit of the technology at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    What I have noticed with the calculators is that they really can't separate Celts from Anglo-Saxons (or Germanics). A person such as myself who is solely Irish (Celt) can show closer affinity to Germanic populations than some people with real ancestry from more Germanic regions.. It took me a while to comprehend this so now I find it odd that people are trying to see if they are more "Celtic" or more "Anglo-Saxon".
    Sorry if this is a back-to-back post and for tangential comment (& if I don't fully get the intent or science of post), but, as an American of mostly British diaspora, I was curious about the comment concerning the oddity of testing with assumptions of "Celtic" vs. "Anglo-Saxon" heritage. England - Angles / Angleland, English - Angle-ish, WASP, I thought that the POBI finding that the English were not as fully Anglo-Saxon as perhaps history and names of languages and countries would suggest was tantamount to a mutiny. I thought that this cultural identity had carried through to (efforts at if not fully fruition) modern DNA tests such as Eurogenes British categories referencing SW English vs. SE English, or Cornish, Welsh, etc. The Eurogenes calculator developer, for example, mentions that Kent population was representational of more North Sea and continental population affinity vs. Cornish less affected by invasions:

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/...nish-like.html

    "By providing the first ancient whole genome sequences from Britain, we get a unique picture of the ancestral populations in Britain before and after the Anglo-Saxon immigrations. We use modern genetic reference panels such as the 1000 Genomes Project to examine the relationship of these ancient samples with present day population genetic data."

    However, diaspora populations such as British New Worlders quickly learn from a few calculators that these labels do not literally apply to us as we can shift strikingly around British Isles and west Euro continental populations. Even 2-3 years ago, non-scientist hobbyists such as myself were fairly unacquainted with "Celtic" not being a real anthro-genetic category. Therefore, I think it will be awhile before most of us catch up to DNA break-throughs from testing advancements and discoveries of more ancient samples ... and know a Celtic from a Yamnaya from a Bell Beaker. I hope that I'm alive, too, when the Irish DNA Atlas study may shed more light on these jet-setting immigrants. So far, they're making it hard to pick the perfect admixture calculator. LOL!

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AnnieD For This Useful Post:

     Amerijoe (08-18-2016),  Jessie (08-18-2016)

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