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Thread: DF49 (L21>DF13>DF49) & Subclades before M222

  1. #1
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    DF49 (L21>DF13>DF49) & Subclades before M222

    Just wanted to get DF49 and Subclades on the board. The newest development is Z2961 which is between DF23 and M222. So far, we have one DF23 (Kelly) positive for Z2961 and one DF23 (Kehoe-me) negative for Z2961. I believe there may be five results pending.

    Thanks, Miles Kehoe #97610
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-22-2014 at 09:13 PM.
    Y-DNA R-DF23>ZP149>ZP171 MDKA Thomas Doherty, b. 1825, Three Trees, Donegal, Ireland.
    mtDNA T2g1 MDKA Francoise Arguin, b. 1698, Camaret-Sur-Mer, Bretagne, France

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    Exclamation

    In order to have a reasonable current list of results, we've set up a DF49 results web page (including DF23, Z2961 and some M222). The page is on a site about R-Z18/L257 which is under the "alien" R-U106, but the software used there is easily applicable to DF49 as well. The results table contains both tested profiles and profiles we recommend to test one of the SNPs. The intention is to update it at least every two weeks and when there are new developments, such as Z2961, more often.

    Please note the page is produced by the FT-DNA DF49 and Subgroups Project; we have no intention of getting in the way of the FT-DNA M222 project and we therefore only list those M222+ who have also tested DF23+ explicitly. To help people decide whether to test any of the new (Geno2) SNPs downstream of M222, we've added all negatives there as well for the time being.

    See www.L257.org; select Y-DNA Profiles DF49+ in the menu on the left. Any serious/helpful comments are welcome !!

    Have fun !!

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Peter M For This Useful Post:

     Clinton P (04-24-2013)

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    It would be interesting to see verify if N26284 (Leister) is Z2961+, he has a M222- result but clusters quite close to the M222+ folks (on Alex Williamson tree anyways)

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    I guess it would be interesting as well to see all continental DF23+ (4xFrance, 1x Italy) test Z2261) that would possibly give a next, although vague due to the low numbers, indication of the route of the DF49 people to the British Isles.

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    I agree and think that DF49, itself, just need broader exploration. It has got to be quite old and I can hardly find an STR off-modal that would indicate testing for DF49. To me, this is just like Z251 and still needs a lot of exploration.

    I'm just wondering out loud here but it would be cool if we could a concentration of DF49* somewhere on the continent. Identification of a location could help support (or not) if Jean or Paul's theories.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-25-2013 at 06:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I agree and think that DF49, itself, just need broader exploration. It has got to be quite old and I can hardly find an STR off-modal that would indicate testing for DF49. To me, this is just like Z251 and still needs a lot of exploration.

    I'm just wondering out loud here but it would be cool if we could a concentration of DF49* somewhere on the continent. Identification of a location could help support (or not) if Jean or Paul's theories.
    If you look at the DF49 results web page (see post #2 above), you'll find a number of clusters that predict DF49-ishness and if we work a little harder, we'll find a few more. And then we have all near-miss M222's. And don't forget the group of DF13's in which DF49+'s will turn out to hide, if they only bothered to test. My problem is not finding the patterns but getting the people carrying those patterns to order a DF49 or DF23 (or now Z2961) test.
    Last edited by Peter M; 04-25-2013 at 07:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter M View Post
    If you look at the DF49 results web page (see post #2 above), you'll find a number of clusters that predict DF49-ishness and if we work a little harder, we'll find a few more. And then we have all near-miss M222's. And don't forget the group of DF13's in which DF49+'s will turn out to hide, if they only bothered to test. My problem is not finding the patterns but getting the people carrying those patterns to order a DF49 or DF23 (or now Z2961) test.
    Yes, there are some STR signature patterns. I was just trying to point out they are varied enough that DF49's ancestral haplotype could be essentially DF13's or L21's. This means anyone out there that is negative for the other subclades could have it. These are the ones you comment about, " the group of DF13's in which DF49+'s will turn out to hide."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacEochaidh View Post
    Just wanted to get DF49 and Subclades on the board. The newest development is Z2961 which is between DF23 and M222. So far, we have one DF23 (Kelly) positive for Z2961 and one DF23 (Kehoe-me) negative for Z2961. I believe there may be five results pending.

    Thanks, Miles Kehoe #97610
    Looking at the DF49/DF23+ results, I came across something that looks a bit like a new DF23+ Z2961- cluster with DYS565=11, DYS487=14, DYS534=14, DYS413a=22, DYS456=16, DYS449=30, DYS389II=30. The first profiles are (the last two are a bit further away and there might well be others):

    1. 97610-FSH3F-Kehoe (Ireland; DF23+; Z2961-; M222-)
    2. N46295-H8G4P-Bonnet (Italy; DF23+; M222-)
    3. 164101-MYXKS-Dougherty (no SNP tests visible)
    4. 165344-7YQ33-Greenlee (Scotland; no SNP tests)
    5. 18917-R8N3D-Brun (France; DF23+; M222-)
    6. 161264-8PX3W-Johnson (L21+; M222-)

    Has this ever been discussed somewhere as a possible cluster (Travelling Salesman Cluster ) ? Any opinions ??

    BTW, to simplify studying these profiles, I've put them all in consecutive rows in the DF49 Result Sheet (somewhere halfway down the page; search for Miles' kit# "97610" using "find on page" in your browser).
    Last edited by Peter M; 04-30-2013 at 12:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter M View Post
    Looking at the DF49/DF23+ results, I came across something that looks a bit like a new DF23+ Z2961- cluster with DYS565=11, DYS487=14, DYS534=14, DYS413a=22, DYS456=16, DYS449=30, DYS389II=30. The first profiles are (the last two are a bit further away and there might well be others):

    1. 97610-FSH3F-Kehoe (Ireland; DF23+; Z2961-; M222-)
    2. N46295-H8G4P-Bonnet (Italy; DF23+; M222-)
    3. 164101-MYXKS-Dougherty (no SNP tests visible)
    4. 165344-7YQ33-Greenlee (Scotland; no SNP tests)
    5. 18917-R8N3D-Brun (France; DF23+; M222-)
    6. 161264-8PX3W-Johnson (L21+; M222-)

    Has this ever been discussed somewhere as a possible cluster (Travelling Salesman Cluster ) ? Any opinions ??

    BTW, to simplify studying these profiles, I've put them all in consecutive rows in the DF49 Result Sheet (somewhere halfway down the page; search for Miles' kit# "97610" using "find on page" in your browser).
    Thanks, Peter. Yes, I'm familiar with my connection with Dougherty, Greenlee, and Bonnet. The problem is that Dougherty (Ireland), Greenlee (Scotland) and I (Ireland), don't match in location with Bonnet (Italy). Bonnet (Perry) is adopted, but swears that his aunt has traced the family back to the 13th Century, or something. As it stands now, because of Bonnet and Brun (France), this set is considered Continental.

    Thanks again, Miles
    Y-DNA R-DF23>ZP149>ZP171 MDKA Thomas Doherty, b. 1825, Three Trees, Donegal, Ireland.
    mtDNA T2g1 MDKA Francoise Arguin, b. 1698, Camaret-Sur-Mer, Bretagne, France

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter M View Post
    Looking at the DF49/DF23+ results, I came across something that looks a bit like a new DF23+ Z2961- cluster with DYS565=11, DYS487=14, DYS534=14, DYS413a=22, DYS456=16, DYS449=30, DYS389II=30. The first profiles are (the last two are a bit further away and there might well be others):
    [*]97610-FSH3F-Kehoe (Ireland; DF23+; Z2961-; M222-)[*]N46295-H8G4P-Bonnet (Italy; DF23+; M222-)[*]164101-MYXKS-Dougherty (no SNP tests visible)[*]165344-7YQ33-Greenlee (Scotland; no SNP tests)[*]18917-R8N3D-Brun (France; DF23+; M222-)[*]161264-8PX3W-Johnson (L21+; M222-)
    [/LIST]
    Has this ever been discussed somewhere as a possible cluster (Travelling Salesman Cluster ) ? Any opinions ??

    BTW, to simplify studying these profiles, I've put them all in consecutive rows in the DF49 Result Sheet (somewhere halfway down the page; search for Miles' kit# "97610" using "find on page" in your browser).
    I agree with you. I've been tracking a variety in the big L21 spreadsheet that includes these guys. I call them variety "49-23*-11-A". I use to have a "B" version to but I think that fell through (not a real cluster.) The markers I've been using to differentiate them are 413a<=22 565=11 481>=23 & 487=14. 487 is pretty slow so I think these guys are really a subclade. It looks like they need to test for DF23 and Z2961.

    fN46295 Bonnet R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23 DF23+ M222-
    f18917 Brun R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23 DF23+ M222- L144-
    f164101 Dougherty zzL21suspect
    f165344 Greenlee zzL21suspect
    f161264 Johnston R1b-P312>L21 L21+
    f97610 Kehoe R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23* DF23+ Z290+ Z2961- M222- 3c1g

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