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Thread: Are the Bretons closer to Welsh and Cornish people or to other French people?

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    The movements of those saints backwards and forwards between the Isles and Brittany are fascinating and really illustrate the old adage that the sea was the highway of the day. Llan in Welsh was originally a sacred enclosure where a church then came to be founded bearing the saint's name. I don't know whether Lan has a different connotation in Breton though.

    Lan in Landivisiau, Landévennec... has indeed a similar meaning (sacred place of Saint...).

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  3. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaperbzh View Post
    It really is fascinating! I unfortunately don't speak Breton but my understanding is that Lann is very much similar to Llan. What's interesting is the predominance of these saints in Breton toponymy (I'm not sure if that's also the case for Wales/Cornwall). Granted, most of them have no historical backing whatsoever, but it does make me wonder about the importance of religion in regard to the Breton migrations. From my very limited research, sources point to a rather military phenomenon with troop settlements from Roman Britain. I'm sure several people here are more knowledgeable about this though.
    The few books I have read on the subject, split the major emigration into 3, beginning with Military, then planned settlement, then those refugees fleeing their Saxon foe.
    This books as I recall was a fantastic read by John Morris - The age of Arthur.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Age-Arthur-...s%2C142&sr=8-1
    Last edited by sgdavies@hotmail.com; 08-09-2019 at 09:52 AM. Reason: John Morris
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  5. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    Yeah, I understand the etymology of the word, yeah that Avallon, in Burgundy seems to have a correlation with Riothamus, but what about the other Avalon in France further south, there are some odd names in that area, could it be this Avalon that Riothamus took refuge?
    Marylin Floyde has written a book (in English) on this subject:
    https://www.livraddict.com/biblio/li...bourgogne.html

    I read it a long time ago: rather exciting but I'm not sure that some comparisons between King Arthur and Riothamus be really serious.
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  7. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    The movements of those saints backwards and forwards between the Isles and Brittany are fascinating and really illustrate the old adage that the sea was the highway of the day. Llan in Welsh was originally a sacred enclosure where a church then came to be founded bearing the saint's name. I don't know whether Lan has a different connotation in Breton though.

    Lan.

    "The prefix lan corresponds to Cornish Lan and to Welsh Llan, both used as names of churches. The Welsh Llan now may be used as a common noun meaning the parish church, and sometimes even the settlement around it. Yet the name predates the parish organization and appears to be, in all Brythonic lands, the prime and main word for an ecclesiastical foundation, for a place of worship. Lan, in place-names, is sometimes followed by an adjective (e.g., Bret Lanmeur, Welsh Llanfor, the great Lan), but more often by the name of a "saint". Some are found both in Wales and in Brittany (Bret Langolen, Welsh Llangollen; Bret Laniltud, Welsh Llanilltyd). In Brittany there is no Lan name including the name of Christ, of Mary, or of Michael, contrary to the situation in Wales, where the last two-Llanfair (from -Mair 'Mary') and Llanfihangel (from Llan Archangel Michael)-are numerously attested. In Brittany the names of the saints commemorated in the Lan names are usually old British ones. The scattering of the Llan names therefore appears to reflect the most ancient scattering of Celtic churches there."



    Breton Settlement Names: A Geographical View Pierre Flatrès

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  9. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Could be right, and R1b-L2 is definitely found in Bretagne, though R1b-L21 is more common.

    FTDNA has a Bretagne DNA Project you can join. I used to be the admin of it, but now it's run by a couple of actual Bretons.
    Thanks! here's a bit more details on other test results (I posted a map in the Breizh thread)

    I am according to 23andme.
    Haplogroup R-L2

    23andMe Results:
    46% European (break down as below)
    19% France and German (with France as likely)
    7.5% British isles
    7.2% Broadly NW European
    2% Italian
    3% Broadly S European
    6.5% Broadly European
    2.6% unassigned

    MyHeritage
    33.7% Irish Scottish Welsh
    7.2% NW European
    9.1% Iberian

    Admixture Studio Results:

    Tolan Recent Ancestors Bretage -
    20% Bretagne
    8% British-Irish
    7% Benelux
    4% Normandie
    3% South Germany
    3% North Africa
    less 1% France, central Europe, Scandinavia, North Italia

    Tolan Recent Ancestors More Precise -
    28.22% British and Irish
    12.17% South Germany
    3.6% North Africa
    1.8% Benelux
    1.29 % France

    Eurogenes 13
    24.41% North Atlantic
    11.08% Baltic
    5.21% West Med
    4.72% East Med
    3.3% Red Sea
    0.98% Sub-Saharan
    and under mixed mode the ranking of choices: 49% SE English, 50% SE English, 51% South Dutch, 52% South Dutch, 50% South Dutch, 51% West German

    Eurogenes K36
    10.27 italian
    9.75 Central Euro
    8.52 North Sea
    8.38 North Atlantic
    3.9 North African
    2.51 Eastern Euro
    2.26 Fennoscanadian
    2.15 Iberian
    1.07 East Balkan
    0.53 East Central Euro
    0.35 French
    0.19 Volga-Ural
    0.17 west caucasian
    0.05 north caucasian

    and a map

    HarappaWorld
    22.56 NE Euro
    16.48 Mediterranean
    3.86 Caucasian
    0.22% W African
    0.03 East African
    and top 3 results: 50% French, 49% French, 49% Utahn-White

    MDLP World K33
    32% West European
    5.8% South European
    3.75% Central European
    2.3% Noth African
    1.35% Caucasian
    1.2 Nearest
    1% East European
    1$ British
    0.% Balkan

    Dodecad K12b
    19.63 North European
    17.13 atlantic med
    3.97 cacasus
    2.9 northwest african
    top 5 results: 50% mixed Germanic D, 49% mixed germanic D, 49% Dutch D, 50% Dutch D, 51% French D

    DNA.Land
    41 Nw European
    4.9 South/Central euro
    5.5 N.African

    Tolan K71
    22.6 Netherlands
    11.44 Armorica
    3.29 N.Africa
    2.94 SW England
    1.83 Tyrol Ausria
    1.28 Cotenin
    0.97 Orcadia
    0.75 Belgium
    0.32 N. Germany
    0.26 S. Germany
    0.25 W. Brittany
    etc (tons of tiny ones)

    Lukasz K47
    11.87 Celtic
    6.8 North IBerian
    6 west finnic
    5.15 Volgan
    4.28 north sea germanic
    3.48 scando germanic
    3.43 paleo balkan
    Top 5 estimates. 49% French west, 50 French west, 51 French, 49 French, 48 Orcadian

  10. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    The movements of those saints backwards and forwards between the Isles and Brittany are fascinating and really illustrate the old adage that the sea was the highway of the day. Llan in Welsh was originally a sacred enclosure where a church then came to be founded bearing the saint's name. I don't know whether Lan has a different connotation in Breton though.
    From what I understand about etymology of “Llan”, the extra L, or the letter”LL” in Welsh is not ancient and might... I.e It might not have existed at the time of the emigration, so maybe the Breton “Lan” might be purer.
    Last edited by sgdavies@hotmail.com; 08-09-2019 at 12:03 PM.
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  12. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabrice E View Post
    absolutely no idea....
    we should look in the etymology of Avalon, and look for the oldest mention of this village in particula
    Fabrice, what are your thoughts on your own branch of DF27? It is an interesting cluster because it includes Douglas, Sutherland, and Murray. These three clans are thought to be descended from Freskyn of Moray, however, according to Ytree, the Douglas cluster was formed around 425BCE and is parallel to the Sutherland cluster.

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  14. #78
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    I just know that we are very few with this Haplo, am I the only French ?
    Freskyn of Moray, according to wiki, is flemish, is that right ?

  15. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabrice E View Post
    I just know that we are very few with this Haplo, am I the only French ?
    Freskyn of Moray, according to wiki, is flemish, is that right ?
    I will post a link to a paper based on the research of Alexandrina Murray. It is a very good article and there is only circumstantial evidence he was Flemish. He was actually from Pembroke and his father was also from Pembroke. They were given land in Scotland for serving David I. She explains that they were living among the Flemish settlers given land in Pembroke by Henry I, but whether they were Flemish themselves is not proven.

    http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/f..._26_2_16-1.pdf

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  17. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    I will post a link to a paper based on the research of Alexandrina Murray. It is a very good article and there is only circumstantial evidence he was Flemish. He was actually from Pembroke and his father was also from Pembroke. They were given land in Scotland for serving David I. She explains that they were living among the Flemish settlers given land in Pembroke by Henry I, but whether they were Flemish themselves is not proven.

    http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/f..._26_2_16-1.pdf
    Just some additional information about the Flemish in South Pembrokeshire, it is also worth noting that even before the flemish, allot of the place names and Islands about, had Norse names, so these places were already quite diverse from Viking times.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsker_Line
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