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Thread: BY198/A738 Haplogroup - Clan Association and Geographic Distribution

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    BY198/A738 Haplogroup - Clan Association and Geographic Distribution

    Starting a new thread to continue the off topic discussion from the Curley surname specific thread:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...724#post180724

    If a mod would like to help migrate the discussion, around comment #39 is where the thread becomes a BY198/A738 centric discussion rather than a Curley surname discussion.



    Where is BY198/A738 from? What are its clan associations? Muireagain has many theories on the origin of S660, BY198/A738 and its various subclades. I'm not convinced, but am willing to consider his evidence.

    The STR variance suggests that BY198 is on the order of 1000 years old, and YFull estimates S660 to be 1550 years old. This makes it unlikely that either BY198 or S660 is limited to a single clan.
    Last edited by miiser; 09-01-2016 at 03:31 PM.

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    What exactly do you mean when you use the term "Clan" in an Irish context? Are you using the term with regards to scottish system? (Which isn't really equivalent system to Ireland), or in concept of "Corporate Clan" (eg. land holding Fine which rotated land at each generation but kept it within the kindred, as outlined by likes of Nicholls, Patterson etc.) or to mean a specific surname (and it's collateral surnames)? Or to describe a wider dynastical segment?

    What can we say about DF105? Well on an analysis of 194 men who have done M222+ bundle, DF105+ comes back at about 82.99% (161 out of 194) -- it's fairly evident that in an Irish context it covers several distinct dynastical segments, if we were to propose that it was linked to the Dál Cuinn, than that makes alot of sense. The Dál Cuinn underwent rapid diversification in the 5th/6th century as they basically conquered half of Ireland.

    In the genealogical tradition of course this is represented by having them all basically spring from one man in shape of Eochaid, who is represent as the ancestor of both the three Connachta (Uí Briúin, Uí Ḟíachrach and Uí Aillella) and the Uí Néill


    eochaid-connachta.png

    Of course like all genealogical structures from before about 700 the above is quite rightly suspect, the concept that the titular Brion (a quo Uí Briúin) and Níall (a quo Uí Néill) were actual half-brothers is very debatable, however politically the Connachta and Uí Néill during the 7th-9th centuries were allied closely to each other and within framework of Irish society were regarded as close kin. So the actual specifics of relationship (the half-brothers) might be fabricated fiction, but it probably reflects a deeper common tribal origin of various Dál Cuinn segments. This concept of it been a tribal federation has more weight when we consider that in oldest strata of Irish language texts we see the term Moccu Cuinn used. The word Moccu is from Archaic Irish (as found on Ogham stones) and usage disapears during the Old Irish linguistic phase (600-1000AD), it's generally translated as "tribe" and it's usage is restricted very much to a pre-christian milieu.

    What we can say is that from current surname analysis that we see DF105 prominent in following:
    Uí Briúin -- all three segments, which differenate in the 6th century, A259 seems to be prominent theme here
    Uí Ḟiachrach -- DF105 undifferentiated, we have limited number of Uí Fiachrach surnames that have done BigY
    Uí Aillella -- were destroyed with rise of Uí Briúin in the late 7th century, as result when fixed surnames arose none claimed to be part of them

    The Uí Néill of course spilt into at least 7 if not more dynastical segments during the course of the late 5th/early 6th century, all of these claiming to be from titular sons of Níall.

    Northern Uí Néill
    Cenél Conaill -- Donegal/NW -- dominated by DF105 (Specifically DF85)
    Cenél nEogain -- Tyrone/Derry (thence origin of name Tyrone eg. Tír Eoghain = Country of Eoghan) -- dominated by DF105 (specifically S588)

    Southern Uí Néill (this is where it gets tricky)

    The Southern Uí Néill obviously occupied the province of Meath, which consisted of Westmeath (Mide), Meath (Brega) and large parts of Longford (Tethba) and Offaly. Hugh de Lacy conquored core of this territory and created the Lordship of Meath.

    Within the Southern Uí Néill we know surnames for at least the following dynastical segments:
    Cenél Maine -- Daly, Fox/Kearney, Higgins? so far depending on level test at least some form of DF105 shows up
    Cenél Fiachrach -- Molly and McGeoghegan -- definetly got M222 here with DF105 showing up in Molloy (have any Geoghegan's done deeper testing?)
    Clann Chólmain -- most important of the segments of Southern Uí Néill, what makes life difficult here is that the main line has undergone process of attraction when it came to their surname eg. Ó Maoilsheaclainn -> O'Mealghin -> McLaughlin/McLoughlin -- as a result it's hard to differenate them out without more in dept testing than just M222 (eg. Cenél nEogain McLaughlin show up as S588+)
    Cenél Coirpre -- we have at least one or two M222+ Carey's however none that I know who have done any further testing.

    Without some indepth research insitu in the midlands (eg. targeting men bearing surnames which are suppose to be part of Southern Uí Néill, with MDKA in the midlands) it's gonna be hard to form a better picture. However generally when M222 shows up in an Irish context it's most of time also DF105+

    With regards to BY198, I think it's too early to form any conclusions about it (well other than it's branch of DF105), it would be useful if the 4 BY198+ BigY results on Alex page were to be submitted to yfull and we might get better idea of it's age.

    Recalling ScotlandsDNA M222 map, I'd be curious how this would shape up when it came to DF105 (or S660 as they called it), that and you would really need them to spilt their Leinster into the historic provinces of Leinster and Meath (well that and spilt Dublin out separately as well).



    Bart Jaski has interesting paper looking at M222 with regards to the original Trinity paper and the surnames that they used see:

    Medieval Irish genealogies and genetics, in Seán Duffy (ed.), Princes, prelates and poets in medieval Ireland. Essays in honour of Katharine Simms (Dublin, 2013) 3-17.

    https://www.academia.edu/2563825/Med...blin_2013_3-17
    Last edited by Dubhthach; 09-02-2016 at 05:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    What exactly do you mean when you use the term "Clan" in an Irish context? Are you using the term with regards to scottish system? (Which isn't really equivalent system to Ireland), or in concept of "Corporate Clan" (eg. land holding Fine which rotated land at each generation but kept it within the kindred, as outlined by likes of Nicholls, Patterson etc.) or to mean a specific surname (and it's collateral surnames)? Or to describe a wider dynastical segment?
    I didn't have a specific definition of "clan" in mind when I made the statement, because it doesn't make a difference. Choose any definition you like, and the statement is still true. If you like, replace "clan" with the more generic phrase "family group".

    A haplogroup begins with one individual, who exists in one particular location and belongs to one particular family, clan, tribe, etc. of a particular name. But after a thousand years or more, that individual's descendants will be spread over a much greater region within a variety of families, clans, or tribes. The correlation between haplogroup and clan becomes weaker over time. While there may still be some weak correlation between haplogroup and clan after 1000 years, we should not expect that every haplogroup will be exclusive to a specific clan, or that every clan will be exclusively composed of a single haplogroup.

    The rate of NPEs is something like 3% or 4% per generation. This accumulates over 1000 years, so that the probability of any single lineage being intact, unaffected by NPEs, is only around 25%. This means even if we believe an ancient recorded genealogy is true, the genetic lineage will still probably not match the documented genealogy. In addition to NPEs, there is genetic mixing between tribes and clans for various reason, including the fosterage system that was prevalent in Irish culture.

    In short, while one may on occasion find a weak correlation between haplogroups and historical tribes, clans, or families etc., we should not expect a majority of haplogroup members to fit into such neat categories of division. And this is what we see in the actual data. There is no strong exclusive correlation between haplogroup and clan. The ancient haplogroups are scattered throughout all of Ireland, spread amongst just about every available surname. And this is why we see so much discussion and debate regarding supposed associations - because there is no obvious single, exclusive association. If there were obvious strong correlations, this would put an immediate end to all debate.
    Last edited by miiser; 09-03-2016 at 03:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miiser View Post
    The rate of NPEs is something like 3% or 4% per generation. This accumulates over 1000 years, so that the probability of any single lineage being intact, unaffected by NPEs, is only around 25%. This means even if we believe an ancient recorded genealogy is true, the genetic lineage will still probably not match the documented genealogy. In addition to NPEs, there is genetic mixing between tribes and clans for various reason, including the fosterage system that was prevalent in Irish culture.
    Of the 26 M222+ Dohertys that have tested their sub-clade, 25 of 26 descend from same Dochartach of the order of 20 generation ago, 1 of 26 probably descends from a ruling branch of Cenel Eoghain located in Inis Eoghain. This conflicts the proposed NPE rate.

    Of the 22 M222+ Duncan and MacConnaughey that have tested their sub-clade, 22 of 22 descend from a common ancestor (about 1000 years ago) who was probably a member of Clann Dalaigh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    Of the 26 M222+ Dohertys that have tested their sub-clade, 25 of 26 descend from same Dochartach of the order of 20 generation ago, 1 of 26 probably descends from a ruling branch of Cenel Eoghain located in Inis Eoghain. This conflicts the proposed NPE rate.

    Of the 22 M222+ Duncan and MacConnaughey that have tested their sub-clade, 22 of 22 descend from a common ancestor (about 1000 years ago) who was probably a member of Clann Dalaigh.
    Once again, you are cherry picking data to find a pattern in the data that isn't real. The surnames you chose are exceptional, not typical. And even within these surnames, you cherry picked only those members that are M222, deliberately excluding many that do not fit your supposed pattern.

    There are several academic studies regarding NPE rate. Go look them up online.

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    My theory? A8815 positive are O'Egan, A8815 neg are MacEgan.

  10. #7
    There are now three A8815+ Morgans. They are from Creagh Parish, Ro. Roscommon, Killian parish, Co. Galway and Glenmaddy Parish, Co. Galway. This suggests that the Morgan cluster in the mid-19th century Griffith evaluation. A crescent: from west shore of the Shannon in Co. Roscommon; across southern Co. Roscommon in Co. Galway; were it turns north on the west side of the River Suck; and follows it to the Roscommon border.

    Capture.PNG

    I believe the BY198/A738+ Egans are from the same area and the Larkins further south?

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    I note there are two branches of BY198/A738. One (FGC4050+) I would describe as partially locate in East Galway with surnames like Morgan and Egan. And another (S27575+) possibly related to North Tipperary with surnames Dunn and Kimball.

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    Might be an idea to have a test for myself and see which branch I am on.

  15. #10
    Did some digging and came up with following SNP tree:

    BY198 - FGC40511 - BY11728 - BY21186 Knowles & Davis
    BY198 - FGC40511 - BY11728 Egan(s) & Gallagher
    BY198 - FGC40511 Morgan(s) & Guinn
    BY198 - BY20834 - BY21680 - BY21671 - BY21676 Larkin(s) from Lorrha and Meelick areas
    BY198 - BY21680 - A15878 Dunn(s) & Kimball
    BY198 - BY21145 - BY21151 Heaney(s)

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