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Thread: When did M222 begin, which directions did it spread, and what is the evidence?

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    When did M222 begin, which directions did it spread, and what is the evidence?

    In some articles I saw they thought M222 began about 450 A.D. However, I have seen another article where they thought it began about 6000 B.C. So, I would like to hear different people state when they think it began, where it came from, and the directions it spread, and what the evidence is for their views.

    One view is M222 began in Ireland and spread to Scotland while another article says something like the oldest M222 indicated it began in Devon, England, went to Ireland, and later to Scotland, but I think they gave an alternative route or two where it spread after leaving Devon. Another theory I have heard is something like M222 might have began back around the time of the La Tene and Hallstatt cultural area time in or close to southern Germany, Switzerland, etc. and spread from there to the British Isles and Ireland.

    Thank you all for your participation. I would like healthy discussion to hopefully gain true insight on these matters. I would really like to know the truth about this, if we have enough evidence now to deduce it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fridurich View Post
    In some articles I saw they thought M222 began about 450 A.D. However, I have seen another article where they thought it began about 6000 B.C. So, I would like to hear different people state when they think it began, where it came from, and the directions it spread, and what the evidence is for their views.

    One view is M222 began in Ireland and spread to Scotland while another article says something like the oldest M222 indicated it began in Devon, England, went to Ireland, and later to Scotland, but I think they gave an alternative route or two where it spread after leaving Devon. Another theory I have heard is something like M222 might have began back around the time of the La Tene and Hallstatt cultural area time in or close to southern Germany, Switzerland, etc. and spread from there to the British Isles and Ireland.

    Thank you all for your participation. I would like healthy discussion to hopefully gain true insight on these matters. I would really like to know the truth about this, if we have enough evidence now to deduce it.

    According to Yfull the TMRCA of the M222 expansion is 1,850. It looks like M222 was just one family until this time. The 35 SNP block is the proof I think. The origins of testers who are Z2961>M222- might be an indication where M222 originated.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M222/

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    Quote Originally Posted by mouse View Post
    According to Yfull the TMRCA of the M222 expansion is 1,850. It looks like M222 was just one family until this time. The 35 SNP block is the proof I think. The origins of testers who are Z2961>M222- might be an indication where M222 originated.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M222/
    Just to clarify:

    1) YFull places the TMRCA at 1850 ybp (BP) or "years before the present."

    2) They posit that M222 began 4300 ybp (BP).

    3) "The present" is not a floating term that moves along with us; "the present", in this sense, is actually locked in at 1950 AD (or 66 years ago).

    I, for one, think it would have been easier to just stick with the old BC/AD designation, but there you go.

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    As to the question asked by the OP, I don't know which estimate is accurate (although 6000 years seems unlikely!). I would love to hear the latest thinking, as well.

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    Found this .... "Origins of the Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English R1b-M222 population"
    http://www.academia.edu/8010655/Orig...222_population

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     fridurich (09-07-2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mouse View Post
    According to Yfull the TMRCA of the M222 expansion is 1,850. It looks like M222 was just one family until this time. The 35 SNP block is the proof I think. The origins of testers who are Z2961>M222- might be an indication where M222 originated.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M222/
    Thanks, the origins of the Z2961 men makes sense to me. For that matter, I guess the origins of men who have other upstream (but not too far upstream) haplogroups from M222 and are M222- might provide clues. I haven't really looked into that yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mc View Post
    Just to clarify:

    1) YFull places the TMRCA at 1850 ybp (BP) or "years before the present."

    2) They posit that M222 began 4300 ybp (BP).

    3) "The present" is not a floating term that moves along with us; "the present", in this sense, is actually locked in at 1950 AD (or 66 years ago).

    I, for one, think it would have been easier to just stick with the old BC/AD designation, but there you go.
    I agree, I wish they had stuck with using B.C. and A.D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairyman View Post
    Found this .... "Origins of the Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English R1b-M222 population"
    http://www.academia.edu/8010655/Orig...222_population
    I have seen that article before. I was in agreement pretty much with the way they said M222 spread in Ireland and Great Britain, but I have my doubts now. It is still an interesting article and many, or most of the things they say may be accurate, except for possibly, or probably, the way M222 spread. So, in my opinion, I am skeptical about the way they said it spread, but I could be wrong.
    Last edited by fridurich; 09-07-2016 at 02:06 AM.

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