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Thread: arabs in the maghreb (maghrebi arabs) from Hilalians and banu maqil invasion ?

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    arabs in the maghreb (maghrebi arabs) from Hilalians and banu maqil invasion ?

    are they have Arabs from banu hilal/Banu Sulaym etc... in the maghreb region(today mixed with Berber ??? )

    The Hilalians or Bani Hilal (Arabic: بنو هلال) were a confederation of Arab tribes of the Hejaz and Najd who emigrated to North Africa in the eleventh century. Masters of the vast plateaus of Najd, the Bani Hilal had a very bad reputation. Recent converts to Islam, they were known for their depredations on the borders of Iraq and Syria. With the revolutionary movement of the Ismaili Qarmatians in Bahrain and Oman, the Bani Hilal participated in 930 pillage of Mecca in their fight against the Fatimids. Thus the latter soon becoming masters of Egypt and founders of Cairo in 969, hastened to confine the unruly Bedouin in the south before sending them to the Maghreb.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Hilal
    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Sulaym
    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Maqil

    Like maybe these people:


    Last edited by dark-mysterio; 09-12-2016 at 02:27 PM.

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    It's your fantasy again. You'll have an easier time finding pure West Africans or half Northern Europeans in the Maghreb than people with at least 50% Arabian ancestry from the Hilalian invasion from 1000 years ago.

    You really should test yourself so that you can get a definite answer.
    Paternal Y-DNA haplogroup: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183
    Maternal [grandfather] Y-DNA: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183>PF2477>PF2546
    Hidden Content

    Lactase Persistence (LP)
    13910: TT (rs4988235 AA)
    22018: AA (rs182549 TT)

    (my mother's LP: same results)

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    i just wait to have money so i can make my own dna test

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignis90 View Post
    It's your fantasy again. You'll have an easier time finding pure West Africans or half Northern Europeans in the Maghreb than people with at least 50% Arabian ancestry from the Hilalian invasion from 1000 years ago.
    It's really weird when people think that some migrating Bedouins (that's what the Banu Hilal and co. were) could have heavily changed the demographics of places like Egypt and the coastal regions of Northwest Africa where they would have found medieval agriculturalist populations who would have had much greater population sizes than them (and more population density). As far as I've noticed, most NW African "Arabs" seem to be mainly derived from their Berber speaking predecessors which makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    It's really weird when people think that some migrating Bedouins (that's what the Banu Hilal and co. were) could have heavily changed the demographics of places like Egypt and the coastal regions of Northwest Africa where they would have found medieval agriculturalist populations who would have had much greater population sizes than them (and more population density). As far as I've noticed, most NW African "Arabs" seem to be mainly derived from their Berber speaking predecessors which makes sense.
    Yup, doesn't make much sense even if Northwest Africa didn't really recover from the fall of the Western Roman Empire by the time of the first islamic expansions in the region : "byzantine" rule was restricted mainly to coastal cities, unlike previous Western Roman rule, and the region didn't get prosperous again under Roman rule.
    Hilalian invasions are also too old to be relevant as there were other opportunities in much more recent times (last couple of centuries) for a Maghrebi to have had Arabian ancestors. It's a bit like using Vandals to explain someone's minor Northern Euro ancestry, it completely ignores the continuous and more significant exchanges with Europe since then.

    A few Maghrebis do have very minor Arabian ancestry but it has nothing to do Hilalians and it is very likely much more recent.
    Paternal Y-DNA haplogroup: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183
    Maternal [grandfather] Y-DNA: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183>PF2477>PF2546
    Hidden Content

    Lactase Persistence (LP)
    13910: TT (rs4988235 AA)
    22018: AA (rs182549 TT)

    (my mother's LP: same results)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignis90 View Post
    Yup, doesn't make much sense even if Northwest Africa didn't really recover from the fall of the Western Roman Empire by the time of the first islamic expansions in the region : "byzantine" rule was restricted mainly to coastal cities, unlike previous Western Roman rule, and the region didn't get prosperous again under Roman rule.
    Hilalian invasions are also too old to be relevant as there were other opportunities in much more recent times (last couple of centuries) for a Maghrebi to have had Arabian ancestors. It's a bit like using Vandals to explain someone's minor Northern Euro ancestry, it completely ignores the continuous and more significant exchanges with Europe since then.

    A few Maghrebis do have very minor Arabian ancestry but it has nothing to do Hilalians and it is very likely much more recent.
    They indeed ignore, or are ignorant of, exchanges between NW Africa and Europe that have been seemingly going on for thousands of years so they see a blue-eyed Maghrebi or something and think "Vandals! Vandals!" when these traits may have been present in the region since the Mesolithic given what we know about Maghrebis' modern population genetics and the pre-history of the region via archaeology. And you're quite right about the invasions of the Bedouins being too old. They were likely pretty heavily outnumbered by the locals + there's been a lot of time to dilute out whatever effect they may have had on the gene-pool. I bet most of what's left of these guys in NW Africa is a rare mtDNA or Y-DNA HG here and there.

    On a side note:

     
    This sort of "Vandals + significant Arab admixture!" stuff is also often pushed by afrocentrists who want to make NW Africans look like "invading Eurasians" of relatively recent origins which is hilarious given that these same people often champion Horn Africans as "what the Ancient Egyptians looked like". It's hilarious because there are clear and notable pre-historic relations between Horn Africans and NW Africans.
    Last edited by Awale; 09-16-2016 at 02:05 PM.

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    I usually get Tunisian+Egyptian/Bedouin/Palestinian/North African Jew for my Tunisian half on my 4-population-oracles but that's due, IMO, to the fact that the Tunisian sample used by Gedmatch calcs is of isolated and endogamous Tunisian Berbers from southern mountainous Tunisia (villages of Chenini and Douiret).
    The recent Cherni 2016 has a PCA plot map (although with few SNPs) that show that Tunisians from Chenini and Douiret form a cluster that is a bit distant from other Tunisians.
    I think if the Gedmatch calcs would include a more representative Tunisian sample, I would score Tunisian+Tunisian for my Tunisian half on 4-population-oracles.

    Herein a map showing the location of the Tunisian samples used by Cherni 2016:

    And herein the location of the Berber villages of Chenini and Douiret:

    Last edited by kikkk; 10-12-2016 at 01:05 PM.

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    On light of all that, should we think that the supposed West Asian shift of Eastern Tunisians vis-a-vis Tunisian berbers is due to historical Arab migration into North Africa? (or maybe Phoenician migration?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    They indeed ignore, or are ignorant of, exchanges between NW Africa and Europe that have been seemingly going on for thousands of years so they see a blue-eyed Maghrebi or something and think "Vandals! Vandals!" when these traits may have been present in the region since the Mesolithic given what we know about Maghrebis' modern population genetics and the pre-history of the region via archaeology. And you're quite right about the invasions of the Bedouins being too old. They were likely pretty heavily outnumbered by the locals + there's been a lot of time to dilute out whatever effect they may have had on the gene-pool. I bet most of what's left of these guys in NW Africa is a rare mtDNA or Y-DNA HG here and there.

    On a side note:

     
    This sort of "Vandals + significant Arab admixture!" stuff is also often pushed by afrocentrists who want to make NW Africans look like "invading Eurasians" of relatively recent origins which is hilarious given that these same people often champion Horn Africans as "what the Ancient Egyptians looked like". It's hilarious because there are clear and notable pre-historic relations between Horn Africans and NW Africans.

    afrocentrists also say that modern day Arabs are no the true arabs

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    Do you know in wich villages these 2 tribes (Banu Helal, Banu Sulaym) even settled (or founded)? It is utopistic to believe that these people arabized whole North-Africa. On the other hand: why do you even want to be descendant from tribals who were called locusts (grasshoppers) because everywhere they went they destroyed the agriculture (for example by ibn Khaldun).
    Last edited by raspberry; 12-29-2016 at 11:13 AM.

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