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Thread: Move from North&West to South& East in European Prehistoria

  1. #1
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    Move from North&West to South& East in European Prehistoria

    I don't deny the great importance of northwards and westwards migration during the European prehistory . A lot of genetic analysis have been demonstated them.

    But I think there were migrations in the opposite directions a long time before Celtic, Germanic and Slavic migrations and I find that the same genetic analysis which have demonstrated the previous ones but they have been neglected because only Early Neolitic and IE migrations are considered in this forum for the prehistory.


    I have used the results of Eurogenes mainly.
    I look at the Eurogenes Basal-rich K7. Notice it is not the Basal K7 and the real Basal Eurasian is about the two thirds of the basal-rich values of the sheet and this may decrease the values in other columns ) but it remains instructive . Ifd we classify the Villabruna cluster for prehistoric cutures, we have the average of the percentage of Villabruna part (West and Central Europa) in comparison of the 6 other parts of AF3-MA1 (South-Center Siberia), Andamanese (Indian Ocean), Basal-rich (Arabian Pen/Iran Plateau), Oceanian ( Australian/Papuans) SE Asian, Sub_Saharan). The origin of the 6 components are outside Europe, except, maybe some part in AF3-MA1 and Basa-rich could come frm Europe earlier the samples :

    93.0 Loschbour (Mesolithic Luxemburg)
    70.3 Motala_HG (Centre Sweden)
    63.3 Iberia_Chl (3)
    62.3 Iberia_BA (1)
    61.6 Iberia_MN (3)
    61.3 Hungary_BA (2)
    59.6 Espersted_MN (1) (Thuringia_GE)
    58.9 Baalberge_MN (1) (East Gerlania)
    58.3 Sweden_MN:Gokhem4
    57.6 Nordic_LN_Sweden (1)
    57.4 Bell_Beaker-Germany (4)
    55.9 Unetice_Germany (3)
    55.4 Remedello_BA (1)
    54.4 Hungary_Chl (1), Iberia-EN (3)
    53.8 Corded-Ware-Estonia (1)
    53.6 Bell_Beaker-Czech (1)
    53.1 Iceman-MN (Eastern Alpes)
    52.8 Poltavka_Potapovska (1) (South Russia)
    51.5 Hungary_Neolithic (4)
    51.1 Sintasha (5) South Ural
    50.1 LBK_EN (3) Central Europe
    49.7 Boncuklu_Neolithic (4) (Turkey_Konyah region), Stuttgart (1) (Early Neolithic German)
    49.5 BattleAxe Sweden (1)
    48.4 Srubnaya (9) (South Russia)
    46.4 Andronovo-Kytmanovo (4), Potapovka_Utevka (1)
    44.7 Barcin-Neolithic (5) (NW Anatolia)
    42.7 Greece_LN:Klei10 (1)
    40.8 Karelia-HG (1) (Finland/Russia border)
    35.7 Tefecik_Ciftlik_Neolithic (4) (Turkey-South Cappadocia)
    35.4 Afanasievo_Kuyum (3) Centre-south Siberia
    35.3 Yamnaya (13) (South Russia)
    35.1 Poltavka (3) (Sud Russia), Steppe_EMBA (1)
    33.4 Afanasievo_Bateni (3) Centre-south Siberia
    32.9 Scythian_IA_Nadezhdinka (1) (South Russia)
    32.2 Anatolia_Chl (1)
    30.0 Levant_Neolithic (3)
    27.3 Armenia_Chl (3)
    24.4 Armenia_MLBA (1)
    23.1 Jordan_EBA (3)
    23.0 Israel_Natufian (1)
    22.5 Srubnaya_outlier (1)
    19.8 Iran-IronAge (1) (NW Iran)
    18.3 Altai_IA (2), Armenia_EBA (3)
    9.0 Iran_Chl (4)
    3.5 Satsurblia (1) (Mesolthique Georgie)
    0.2 Iran_Late_Neolithic (1)
    0 Baalberge_MN (1) (NE German), Clovis-Anzick (1) (N America), Iran_Hotu (1) (Mesolithic North Iran), Iran_Neolithic (3)


    I notice Afanasievo, Steppe_EMBA, Yamna and Poltavka (All from 3500BC to2100BC) are around 35% for Villabruna but the more recent Srubnaya (1800-1100BC) is 48.4% even when it is successor to the Late Catacomb culture and the Poltavka culture, as well as the Potapovka culture (52.8 and 46.4%), we have Sintasha 51.1% in South Ural and Andronovo 46.4% in Southwest Siberia)), therefore values around 50% and 15% higher than the earlier cultures of the Russia. Also we can notice nowadays East Ukrainia is 54.1%, West Ukrainia 54.3%, the Finnish people of Central Russia Erzya 50.6% with 7% of historical East Asian more.

    Same thing for North Russia Karelia_HG 40.8% compared with modern Finnish 54.2%, Estonian 59.7% and Russian_Kargopol 51.8%

    The presence of Villabruna part in Central Asia must be noticed : Tadjik around 20%. In Eurogenes K13, the presence of North Atlantic is 11% in Tadjik, 19% in Tatar of Kazan, 13.7% in Tabassaran, 14.9% in Chuvaches, 21% in Erzya .

    The fact is there were important Western European arrivals thru East Europe. The most noticeable must be with the birth of Sintasha (South Ural) and Srubnaya culture probably from arrivals by the Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture, 3200 BC–2300 BC, an eastern extension of the Corded Ware culture into Russia.


    If we compare the results of f3(Test, X Mbuti), the highest remains Villabruna-cluster (Bichon and Villabruna9030) have identical results).
    Bichon cave (France/Switzerlan border) of the Villabruna-cluster is higher than Afontova-Gora and Anatolia-Neolitic for

    > 0.019 Latvian (0.300)
    > 0.017 Estonian (0.298), Lithuanian (0.300)
    > 0.016 Finnish (0.296)
    > 0.014 Russian_Kargopol (0.292)
    > 0.013 Belarusian (0.296), Erzya (0.291), Moksha (0.292), Russian (O.295), Swedish (0.296)
    > 0.012 Polish (0.295), Ukrainian_Belgorod (0.294)
    > 0.011 Norwegian (0.295), Ukrainian_Lviv/Poltava (0.294)
    > 0.010 English (0.295), Orcadian (0.294), Scottish (0.295)
    > 0.009 German (0.294), Irish (0.294), Slovakian (0.293)
    > 0.007 Dutch (0.293), Hungarian (0.291), Slovenian (0.292)
    > 0.006 Basque_French (0.295)
    > 0.005 French (0.291),
    > 0.003 Bosnian (0.288), Croatian (0.289)
    > 0.002 Spanish (0.286)
    > 0.001 Serbian (0.287)
    > 0.000 Montenegrin (0.287)

    < 0.000 and > 0.285 Italian_Bergamo (0.286), Sardinian (0.286)
    Last edited by palamede; 09-12-2016 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Corrections

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  3. #2
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    Yamnaya, Poltavka were dominated by R1b-Z2103 with about 35% Villabruna_like (in Eurogenes K7 Basal-rich) , it was before 2200BC in South Russia. and after 2200BC, R1a dominated Potapovska (2/2 samples), Srubna (6/6 samples), Sintasha (2/2 samples), Andronovo 2/2 samples), This with about 50% Villabruna_like.

    This is dated of 2200BC wihich corresponds to several events thru the World (Progression of Bell Beaker in North Western Europe, fall of Akkadian Empire by Zagros mountaineers (Gutian) invasion, end of Old Empire in Egypte with Asiatic infiltrations, arrival of first Greeks in Greece, ...) . All in relation with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event .

    More than an expulsion of previous inhabitants, I imagine a strong aridity spread in the steppes . The population went to new areas like Urals, Balkans, Carpathes, Anatolia and Middle East, this corresponds to the arrivals from R1b-Z2103, except maybe in Middle East its basal sub-branches Z584 and Z277 could be arrived earlier into the Armenian plateau, the Zagros mountains and the west and south coasts of the Caspian sea at the time of the Chalcolithic Armenien samples (2619-2465 calBCE or before)), first R1b in Middle East and the rise of Villabruna_like in Chalcolitic Armenians (27%).

    At the end of the drought, the steppes were empty and the descendants of old inhabitants were in faraway regions with new dwellings. The steppes of South Russia SW Siberia and Kazakhstan (Potapovska, Srubna, Sintasha, Andronovo ..) were populated from the population of Middle Volga descendants of the Fatyanovo_Balanovo_culture and the Middle Volga now depopulated see the arrival of Uralics.

    "The Srubna name comes from Russian cруб (srub), "timber framework", from the way graves were constructed". This could show an origin from forest area.
    Last edited by palamede; 09-14-2016 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Corrections

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