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Thread: Are many supposedly pure British getting false Mediterranean islander ?

  1. #1
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    Are many supposedly pure British getting false Mediterranean islander ?

    I get 9-10% with Ancestry,FTDNA and 23andMedata, while my father gets 11% with FTDNA data. It's above noise levels but I know of no Cypriot,Maltese or Sicilian ancestry.

    My father gets -

    MDLP world 22- 8 89.1% Swedish (derived) + 10.9% Cypriot (derived) @ 1.32
    10 85.6% Swedish (derived) + 14.4% Sicilian (derived) @ 1.38

    Eurogenes K13- 8 94.7% West_Scottish + 5.3% East_Sicilian @ 1.66
    11 94.3% West_Scottish + 5.7% West_Sicilian @ 1.67


    Dodecad World 9- 16 95.7% Kent (1000 Genomes) + 4.3% Cypriots (Behar) @ 0.85


    puntDNAL K15 - 19 96.8% Scottish + 3.2% Sicilian @ 1.37


    Ancient Eurasia K6 - 6 81% Estonian + 19% Cypriot @ 0.99
    14 95.4% Ukrainian + 4.6% Cypriot @ 1.12


    Eurasia K10 CHG - 19 79.3% Norwegian + 20.7% Sicilian @ 1.63


    Eurasia K11 CHG- 16 79.2% Scottish + 20.8% Sicilian @ 2.97
    18 80.5% Scottish + 19.5% Maltese @ 3.18


    Eurasia K9 ASI- 5 76% Norwegian + 24% Sicilian @ 1.24
    19 90.1% English + 9.9% Cypriot @ 1.42



    Gedrosia K11- 6 68.1% Norwegian + 31.9% Sicilian @ 5.24



    Gedrosia K12- 3 64.2% Norwegian + 35.8% Sicilian @ 5.2


    Gedrosia K15- 20 67.8% Norwegian + 32.2% Sicilian @ 4.97
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  3. #2
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    I don't like the word "pure", because of course, we are all admixed populations, and are all cousins. The English are known to be heavily admixed, particularly during the Early Medieval. With that point in mind ... you know my genealogy. 100% English on paper, the majority from Norfolk, East Anglia (7 out of 8 grandparents born in that county). 207 direct ancestors named, all in Southern / Eastern England, all apparently English surnames and religious denominations. My results?

    I recently posted this about my bizarre "South European" results from FTDNA and to an extent from 23andMe, and DNA.land. It might be relevant. As I've said before, I can't account for anything like that in the paper and family history trail, and I don't really believe that it represents real ancestry within the historical period:

    23andMe test before phasing, in spec mode included:

    3% Southern European
    including
    0.5% Iberian.

    Then tested my mother who got:

    2.2% Broadly Southern European

    After phasing with her, my results 23andMe AC spec changed to:

    1.8% Broadly Southern European

    23andMe Split view suggests (based on phasing with mother alone) that I inherited:

    1% Southern European from my father (cannot test, RIP), and
    0.9% Southern European from my mother.

    In other words, 23andMe is telling me that both of my parents carried low percentages of Southern European.

    On DNA.land, my 23andme data analysis report includes;

    19% South European
    including:
    13% Balkans
    6.1% South/Central European


    Now to add your Gedmatch Heritage admixture calculators:

    MDLP World-22:

    4 89.4% CEU_V (derived) + 10.6% Sicilian (derived) @ 1.15
    13 92.4% CEU_V (derived) + 7.6% Cypriot (derived) @ 1.46

    Eurogenes K13:

    13 89.9% Southeast_English + 10.1% West_Sicilian @ 2.26

    Dodecad World 9:

    None.

    PuntDNAL K15:

    1 95.3% Utahn_White + 4.7% Sardinian @ 0.73
    9 87% Irish + 13% Sardinian @ 1.08
    10 88.6% English + 11.4% Sardinian @ 1.11
    17 83.3% North_German + 16.7% Sardinian @ 1.27
    19 86.9% Orcadian + 13.1% Sardinian @ 1.29

    Ancient Eurasia K6:

    11 69.7% Europe_LNBA + 30.3% Cypriot @ 0.86
    15 75.5% Norwegian + 24.5% Cypriot @ 0.89
    20 59.3% Sardinian + 40.7% Steppe_EMBA @ 0.96


    Eurasia K10 CHG:

    None

    Eurasia K11 CHG

    4 79.8% Scottish + 20.2% Sicilian @ 2.99
    7 86% Scottish + 14% Cypriot @ 3.09
    8 81% Scottish + 19% Maltese @ 3.12

    Eurasia K9 ASI:

    None

    Gedrosia K11:

    None

    Gedrosia K12:

    2 56.6% Norwegian + 43.4% Sicilian @ 3.6

    Gedrosia K15:

    14 64% Norwegian + 36% Sicilian @ 4.71

    Edit: I forgot to add that a recent FTDNA Family Finder My Origins test gave me:

    32% Southern European
    Which I cannot account for except to believe that it's a rubbish result.
    Last edited by A Norfolk L-M20; 09-25-2016 at 10:58 AM. Reason: added FTDNA

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  5. #3
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    On 23andMe I don't have any Southern European whilst my brother has 1.2% Southern European (1.% Broadly Southern European and 0.2% Iberian) as well as 0.1% North African which might be associated in some way.

    On DNALand I have 8.2% Southwestern European whilst my brother has 4.2% Ashkenazi/Levantine.

    The only test that showed any Mediterranean islands in the oracles for either myself or my brother was the Gedrosia K15 -

    Myself

    1 50% Norwegian +25% Norwegian +25% Sicilian @ 3.421370

    1 Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 3.421370
    6 Czech + Norwegian + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 3.878640
    11 English + English + Finnish + Sicilian @ 3.972906
    19 Finnish + French + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 4.211110

    My brother

    5 English + Norwegian + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 3.898798
    20 English + Hungarian + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 4.290256

  6. #4
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    I should ideally have put pure British according to their known ancestry but doubt the title bar limitations would have allowed for that .
    My known ancestry is 100% British .

    My father also gets quite a few other Italian results in the Oracles. If I include Sardinian as you have done then he also gets-


    Eurogenes K15- 7 96.3% Irish + 3.7% Sardinian @ 2.52
    19 95.1% West_Scottish + 4.9% Sardinian @ 2.75


    Dodecad K7B- 5 94.1% German (Dodecad) + 5.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 0.53

    HarappaWorld-
    19 95.7% n-european (xing) + 4.3% sardinian (hgdp) @ 1.38


    Eurasia K11 CHG- 10 71.8% Ukrainian + 28.2% Sardinian @ 2.51
    15 82.9% Hungarian + 17.1% Sardinian @ 2.92
    19 82.8% English + 17.2% Sardinian @ 3.19


    To divert away from my original question and onto your Southern European results;he also gets
    Southern European in FTDNA but at a lower percentage than you ie 14%.
    Given that I get none it would seem to be patently ridiculous. But then there are the quite a few Italian results
    in the Oracle, though where an Italian population does or does not become Southern I have no idea.
    Is the whole of Italy regarded as Southern European?

    I have doubts that the Mediterranean islander in our dna land results " represents real ancestry within the historical period" to quote you.

    Nor do I believe do my father's Southern European results.

    Whether in either case it represents ancient ancestry beyond the time frame of genealogical records I would not like to hazard an opinion. If my father had got Mediterranean islander and I had not I would have been even more sceptical.
    Given that my father got 11% I should have got roughly 5.5% from him which suggests the additional 3.5 to 4.5% or so would have come from my mother.
    Given that she was Scottish and Irish according to paper trail (though with one surname the ancestors of which trace back to North England) I am doubtful about there also being a Mediterranean islander connection on her side. Unfortunately she is dead so can't be tested.

    It does make question the validity of some of these testing companies results.
    Last edited by firemonkey; 09-25-2016 at 12:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firemonkey View Post
    I should ideally have put pure British according to their known ancestry but doubt the title bar limitations would have allowed for that .
    My known ancestry is 100% British .

    My father also gets quite a few other Italian results in the Oracles. If I include Sardinian as you have done then he also gets-


    Eurogenes K15- 7 96.3% Irish + 3.7% Sardinian @ 2.52
    19 95.1% West_Scottish + 4.9% Sardinian @ 2.75


    Dodecad K7B- 5 94.1% German (Dodecad) + 5.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 0.53

    HarappaWorld-
    19 95.7% n-european (xing) + 4.3% sardinian (hgdp) @ 1.38


    Eurasia K11 CHG- 10 71.8% Ukrainian + 28.2% Sardinian @ 2.51
    15 82.9% Hungarian + 17.1% Sardinian @ 2.92
    19 82.8% English + 17.2% Sardinian @ 3.19


    To divert away from my original question and onto your Southern European results;he also gets
    Southern European in FTDNA but at a lower percentage than you ie 14%.
    Given that I get none it would seem to be patently ridiculous. But then there are the quite a few Italian results
    in the Oracle, though where an Italian population does or does not become Southern I have no idea.
    Is the whole of Italy regarded as Southern European?

    I have doubts that the Mediterranean islander in our dna land results " represents real ancestry within the historical period" to quote you.

    Nor do I believe do my father's Southern European results.

    Whether in either case it represents ancient ancestry beyond the time frame of genealogical records I would not like to hazard an opinion. If my father had got Mediterranean islander and I had not I would have been even more sceptical.
    Given that my father got 11% I should have got roughly 5.5% from him which suggests the additional 3.5 to 4.5% or so would have come from my mother.
    Given that she was Scottish and Irish according to paper trail (though with one surname the ancestors of which trace back to North England) I am doubtful about there also being a Mediterranean islander connection on her side. Unfortunately she is dead so can't be tested.

    It does make question the validity of some of these testing companies results.
    Absolutely. That 23andMe, FTDNA, WeGene, DNA.land, and the Gedmatch calculators contradict each other so much. That our 23andMe ancestry changes so significantly with phasing. I've lost a lot of faith in autosomal DNA testing for ancestry. It might be easy for someone of recent but unknown mixed ancestry from the migration events to the Americas for example, to accept what they are given as a truth. But not so much for us. I will however defend autosomal testing to a certain degree. 23andMe for example, seem good for identifying some distinct populations. I can for example, state that the 23andMe British & Irish categorisation is good for identifying descent from the old British populations of NW Europe, particularly the Irish and Scottish. It gets confused by the English however. As for FTDNA and it's assertion that I have 32% Southern European ancestry, I am clueless why they should give that conclusion!

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  10. #6
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    I think WeGene is perhaps the biggest joke of all but then to be fair it is not aimed at those of us with European ancestry.

    My results there.

    23andMe

    Wegenes autosomal.PNG



    Ancestry

    Wegenes autosomal ancestry.PNG
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    I get 1.9% Southern European in 23andme in spec. 0.5% survives in standard and Ancestry dna gave me 3% Iberian. Just assumed it was part of the makeup of the British Isles. I get Sardinian/Mediterranean Islander/South Central European in dna land. Most of my second population oracles are more East.
    Known ancestry: English (mostly S/SE England) + Irish (Cork)

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    Just as a matter of interest the other Italian oracle results my father gets.

    MDLP world- 13 88.1% German-North + 11.9% Italian-Center @ 1.23
    14 88.9% German-North + 11.1% Italian-South @ 1.24


    MDLP world 22- 4 84% Swedish (derived) + 16% Italian-Center (derived) @ 1.11
    7 84.8% Swedish (derived) + 15.2% Italian-South (derived) @ 1.21


    Eurogenes K15- 16 94.1% Irish + 5.9% North_Italian @ 2.71

    Eurogenes K13- 4 93.1% West_Scottish + 6.9% Tuscan @ 1.64
    5 95.3% West_Scottish + 4.7% Italian_Jewish @ 1.65
    18 94.1% West_Scottish + 5.9% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.7

    Dodecad K12 B- 7 89.1% Dutch (Dodecad) + 10.9% North_Italian (HGDP) @ 0.97
    8 88.5% Dutch (Dodecad) + 11.5% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.03
    13 91.2% Dutch (Dodecad) + 8.8% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 1.12
    17 92% Dutch (Dodecad) + 8% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.3
    19 90.9% Dutch (Dodecad) + 9.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.44

    Dodecad K 7B- 12 70.7% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 29.3% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 0.63
    14 68.9% Swedish (Dodecad) + 31.1% North_Italian (HGDP) @ 0.67
    18 77.7% Orkney (1000Genomes) + 22.3% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 0.72


    Dodecad world 9- 1 68.9% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 31.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 0.74
    7 76.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 23.9% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 0.84


    HarappaWorld- 1 92.2% utahn-white (hapmap) + 7.8% tuscan (1000genomes) @ 0.69
    4 90.3% utahn-white (hapmap) + 9.7% italian (hgdp) @ 0.79


    Eurasia K6- 11 74.3% Estonian + 25.7% Italian_South @ 1.07
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  15. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by L1983 View Post
    I get 1.9% Southern European in 23andme in spec. 0.5% survives in standard and Ancestry dna gave me 3% Iberian. Just assumed it was part of the makeup of the British Isles. I get Sardinian/Mediterranean Islander/South Central European in dna land. Most of my second population oracles are more East.
    I think that a percentage of Southern European in 23andMe spec is part of the makeup of the British Isles. a lot of English seem to get it. I just don't know if it's deep ancestral (Neolithic, late prehistoric, Romano-British, etc), or if it simply tells us that Ancestry Composition programs cannot tell us Europeans apart well enough to distinguish.

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    Roman heritage in British isles?

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