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Thread: Haplogroup N Tat in Neolithic China

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    Haplogroup N Tat in Neolithic China

    I apologize if this paper has already been discussed.

    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/va...g2016107a.html

    Eupedia seems to have taken this to mean that all N1c in Europe has roots in Neolithic North-Eastern China.

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    Nobody knows the exact place of origin of N-231 or N1c. I myself once suggested that N-231 could have arisen somewhere in the middle of its modern range. The main Chinese Neolithic N line is N-L732 in Isogg (N4 F2930 in Estonian Biocentre and N-F2905 in yfull), formed 18200 ybp, TMRCA 16200 ybp. This line does not exist in the west, so it is impossible that the western N is derived from the main Chinese Neolithic N. However, in Sanguan they also detected N1c which is widely distributed in the west, but the TMRCA of N1c is c. 13 000 years, which means that the common origin of western N1c and Chinese N1c is probably too old to have a real connection with Chinese Neolithic (at least on a time scale of 3000-5000 BC).

    Sanguan seems to be the younger site c. 1500 BC while Jiangjialiang is older and dated >3000 BC.

    YdNA N Figure 1.PNG
    Last edited by Kristiina; 09-27-2016 at 02:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Nobody knows the exact place of origin of N-320 or N1c. I myself once suggested that N-320 could have arisen somewhere in the middle of its modern range. The main Chinese Neolithic N line is N-L732 in Isogg (N4 F2930 in Estonian Biocentre and N-F2905 in yfull), formed 18200 ybp, TMRCA 16200 ybp. This line does not exist in the west, so it is impossible that the western N is derived from the main Chinese Neolithic N. However, in Sanguan they also detected N1c which is widely distributed in the west, but the TMRCA of N1c is c. 13 000 years, which means that the common origin of western N1c and Chinese N1c is probably too old to have a real connection with Chinese Neolithic (at least on a time scale of 3000-5000 BC).

    Sanguan seems to be the younger site c. 1500 BC while Jiangjialiang is older and dated >3000 BC.

    YdNA N Figure 1.PNG
    Thank you Kristiina,

    I have found the original forum on Eupedia discussing this, there is a mention of the age problem but is largely ignored. I have never been a fan of Eupedia, especially the N page as it seems to very much push a South East Asian origin. This would be fine except he seems to ignore things that may say otherwise. On the page you will find the Month old paper above, 2013 papers using LLY22g to define N and no mention what so ever of the Balkan branches.

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    On Eupedia people often make poorly justified comments.

    As almost all others, I also believed in the southeastern origin of yDNA N when the Karafet yDNA K paper was published. Then, Ust Ishim came out as NO and was autosomally not East Asian but generic Eurasian and close to ASI. Then, even the Chinese researchers found out that N is older in Siberia/Altai than in China, even without the western N-P189.2.
    N-M231 mainly Han and Mongol 9.8 kya, linearly calibrated 15.8 kya
    N1-F2130 mainly Han and Mongol 8.4 kya, linearly calibrated 13.5 kya
    N2-F2930 Mainly Han 6.7 kya, linearly calibrated 10.8 kya.
    (http://arxiv.org/abs/1504.06463)

    In this new Estonian paper, the Chinese branch N4 was again younger (16220 ybp) than the non-Chinese branch N1’3 (17621 ybp). N5, Balcanic line, derived from the oldest split, has been detected in one Iron Age burial from Hungary and possibly from Iron Age Altai but to my knowledge it has never been found in China.

    I am waiting for ancient yDNA from Volga Ural, Siberia and from Mesolithic Central Asia to get a clearer picture. The areas and cultures that are relevant for the expansion of yDNA N are unsampled.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 09-27-2016 at 07:04 PM.

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    I have just questions.

    Did N1C and N1 speak differently? What language do you think N1C spoke in Manchu?
    Xueshan culture (Jiangjialiang site) 5600–4900 BP (s=17)
    1. 58.8% N*-M231 (xN1c2a-M128, N1c1-Tat)
    2. 41.2% N1c1-Tat
    --> I think both of them had same tongue like Urlic in the Liao valley. And N1c moved in Europe.

    from Liao valley's comb ware
    The oldest ones have been discovered from the remains of Liao civilization - xinglongwa culture (BC 6200 - 5400 BC) -.[1] It appears in 4200 BC in Finland and 4000 BC in the Korean Peninsula, so the Urheimatis assumed to be Liao region and spread afterward to North Europe through Siberia and to Korean peniusla. This is possibly related to Uralic migration and spread of haplogroup N (Y-DNA).[2]
    To Karelia
    However, calibrated radiocarbon dates for the comb-ware fragments found (e.g., in the Karelian isthmus), give a total interval of 5600 BC – 2300 BC (Geochronometria Vol. 23, pp 93–99, 2004).
    --> Russia Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia. Maybe this guy might be N or N1c, I assume. Does someone know the Hg of this guy?
    Last edited by johen; 10-01-2016 at 02:10 AM.

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    R1a is haplo of that guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    R1a is haplo of that guy
    sorry, R1a was a boy

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    If N4 and N1c separated c. 20 000 and 13 000 years ago, respectively, do you really think that there could be only one or two languages? N4 in Neolithic China probably spoke a common/ similar language but I would not dare to make any guess of its type as long as we do not know where N4 originated. N1c will probably be quite scattered, and I do not make any presumptions about the original language. At a Neolithic time depth (c. 5000), N1c men may have spoken several different languages depending on the extent of the area they occupied. However, in the west, N1c males probably spoke Proto-Uralic c. 3000 BC.

    In general, I am totally against the idea that old and widespread y haplogroups such as N, R or J can be linked with one language family.

    Manchu y DNA is the following: C3*(xC3c) 8/35, C3c 1/35, D 1/35, O1 1/36, O2 3/36, O2b 2/36, O3* 3/36, O3/-cd 3/36, O3e 2/36, O3c1 5/36, K* 1/36, N* 2/36, N1 2/36, N2 1/36, so modern Manchu are not relevant for the identification of Neolithic Liao Region people.

    I explained above that it is IMPOSSIBLE that the European N1c is derived from the Chinese Neolithic N4. There is 0% of N4 in Europe. Moreover, Sanggan N1c is quite recent, only c. 1500 BC, so we do not know where it was during the Neolithic.

    In two samples from Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, there was no yDNA N, but only R1a and J. If the guy you posted is not R1a, he can be J.

    I probably spent too much time to answer your question because I am sure that you will stick to the theory you proposed because it pleases you, so this answer is with all probability waste of my time.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 10-01-2016 at 06:45 AM.

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    You probably understand better if I use R1b as reference.

    In the R1b tree, the oldest split is R-V88, formed 17300 ybp with a TMRCA of 10200 years. This line reaches very high frequencies in Chadic speakers, even 95.5% in AA/Chadic speaking Ouldeme from Cameroon. With your logic, we could therefore presume that the oldest branch V88 (17300) spread from Cameroon to Europe.

    This thinking is on the same level as to say that the next oldest N branch N4 (20 000 ypb) spread from the West Liao River to Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post

    I probably spent too much time to answer your question because I am sure that you will stick to the theory you proposed because it pleases you, so this answer is with all probability waste of my time.
    If you felt that way, I am very sorry.

    edit: I forgot to mention why to post it. I did b/c it is related with my thread.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-speaker/page2
    Last edited by johen; 10-01-2016 at 01:13 AM.

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