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Thread: Haplogroup N Tat in Neolithic China

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    However the "western" branch (N5) is a dwarf group compare to the eastern branch
    It's rather clear all other (x N5) branches came from a common LGM refuge in the east
    Yes, N5 is probably the first split off during the migration to the east, while x N5 moved further east. But I'd still emphasis that there was no Beringia crossing for this haplogroup, and a younger TMRCA within China, so x N5 still did not move to the Far East, just further east of where N5 was left behind. The final settlement in the Far East happened later as x N5 diversified and expanded during the Neolithic, probably in a northwest to southeast direction. We see x N5 in Inner Mongolia and Manchuria during the middle and late Neolithic, so that's a lower limit for when it reached the Far East, leaving a trail across North Asia in the process.
    Last edited by Lathdrinor; 10-07-2016 at 01:36 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
    Yes, N5 is probably the first split off during the migration to the east, while x N5 moved further east. But I'd still emphasis that there was no Beringia crossing for this haplogroup, and a younger TMRCA within China, so x N5 still did not move to the Far East, just further east of where N5 was left behind. The final settlement in the Far East happened later as x N5 diversified and expanded during the Neolithic, probably in a northwest to southeast direction. We see x N5 in Inner Mongolia and Manchuria during the middle and late Neolithic, so that's a lower limit for when it reached the Far East, leaving a trail across North Asia in the process.
    Oh I agree (who was proposing Beringia ?)
    Phylogenetically, south central Sibera makes sense- but it appears archaeological research has mostly focused around the Altai

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
    I also think current evidence is consistent with, though not necessarily proof of, separate expansions for West and East Eurasian branches of N. The whole of N looks scattered across several separate star clusters that are geographically, linguistically, and ethnically distinct. We also have no evidence that N was present during the Beringia expansion, which argues against its presence in eastern Siberia during the LGM. The best model would be a post-LGM eastward expansion from a western Siberian site.
    Northeast Asia is a big place, I don't think failing to reach Beringia means much. From northern China the Bering Strait is as far away as Moscow - 5 or 6000 km - and the far northern branches of N seem relatively young.

    The most common branch of N in northern Eurasia is N-L1026 (N3a3'6) under N1c1-Tat, which according to Ilumae et al estimates expanded during the 3rd millennium BC, and that reaches from the Atlantic to the Bering Sea. Also common though more patchy in distribution is N-B523/Y3210 (N2a1) under N1c2b-P43, which is about the same age, and reaches from Karelia to Chukotka. There is east-west differentiation in subclades, but this is much later in time than the origin of N and its main branches.

    The basal diversity of N in the east is considerable. China has all branches of N1a-F2905 (N4), with TMRCA of ~14-19 ky, very rare and downstream in Europe, and also high basal diversity of the other branch, N1c-L729 (N1'2'3), TMRCA 15-20 ky. Under N1c1-Tat (N3), TMRCA ~11-15 ky, it has 2 levels of N1c1a-M178, F3331+ and F3331-, both upstream of the divergence between Altaian N-B187 (N3b) and N-L708 (N3a) - the latter being the first clade that could arguably be West Eurasian. Under N1c2-L666 (N1'2) it has N1c2a1-M128 (N1), almost non-existent in Europe, and upstream N1c2a-F1154(xM128), as well as the rare (but equally old) sister branch to N-B523, N1c2b2-B520 (N2a2). Last but not least, it has N1c-F1206*(xN1c1-Tat, N1c2-F3163), itself having considerable haplotype diversity (my guess is perhaps a sister branch to N1c2). About the only thing missing is N2-Y6503 (N5).

    But I don't mean to strongly advocate an eastern origin here, because there hasn't been enough sampling in North Asia, or even in European Russia or Central Asia, to be sure what's there. There is a fair bit of N(xM128, P43, Tat) which remains to be identified, and scattered reports of N1c1-Tat(xM178) from the Volga to Inner Mongolia (but none confirmed by full sequencing, so I don't completely trust them.)

    Anyway, on current evidence, I think we can safely say that haplogroup N had its origins somewhere in northern Eurasia.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 10-07-2016 at 04:21 PM.

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    On the basis of that new Estonian haplotree, the expansion from the South Siberian Ice Age refuge makes sense, although on the basis of its age, it is possible that N4 was already at that time in a North Chinese Ice Age refuge wherever it was.

    From South Siberia, P43 may easily have parted company with one line (B523) heading to West Siberia and the other (N2a2) to China, as well as L708 to the west and B496 to the east.

    YdNA N Figure 1.PNG

    Megalophias, do you know what is the relation of F3331+ and F3331- with N3c-B496?

    However, the east west dichotomy exists:
    N5 (oldest split) west
    N4 (next oldest split) Southeast Asia, + N-F1206* (Southeast Asia)
    N1a (Central Asia v. Southeast Asia)
    N-P43 (Eastern Europe/West Siberia v. Southeast Asia)
    N-TAT (Eastern Europe v. East Asia)

    I also think that Northern Central Eurasia is the most probable centre of expansion as several branches spreading to opposite directions is unlikely to have happened repeatedly only from one end of the area to the other end.

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