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Thread: New study on R1b Ht35 published by Lucotte

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    New study on R1b Ht35 published by Lucotte

    I haven't read this yet but it appears to explain what ht35 is technically. Generally speaking, this is related to the R1b-L23xL51 folks found in the R1b M269+ U106- P312- project, also known as the "new ht35" project or now the "real R1b1a2*" project.

    "Ht35 Y Chromosome Haplotype in Europe" by Lucotte
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1RI...it?usp=sharing

    I see that Peter Hrechdakian is listed as an author too. Here is the project background screen which has a little more explanation.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...w/default.aspx

    Make sure to look at the frequency map. This looks like our best best bet to-date as far as a frequency chart for this group. As you know, I think diversity rather than frequency is of value for tracking an origin point, however, frequency definitely helps define the distribution and that can be compared with various cultural/folk movements.

    It looks like the southern half of Italy has a lot of these people as well as the Balkan Peninsula, the Peloponnese and, of course, Anatolia. It looks like Romania, southern Poland and the Ukraine could be seen as an extension of the Balkans.

    Unfortunately I don't think they covered over into Central Asia, not that there was a lot to find there anyway.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-03-2013 at 03:40 PM.

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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I haven't read this yet but it appears to explain what ht35 is technically. Generally speaking, this is related to the R1b-L23xL51 folks found in the R1b M269+ U106- P312- project, also known as the "new ht35" project or now the "real R1b1a2*" project.

    "Ht35 Y Chromosome Haplotype in Europe" by Lucotte
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1RI...it?usp=sharing

    I see that Peter Hrechdakian is listed as an author too. Here is the project background screen which has a little more explanation.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...w/default.aspx

    Make sure to look at the frequency map. This looks like our best best bet to-date as far as a frequency chart for this group. As you know, I think diversity rather than frequency is of value for tracking an origin point, however, frequency definitely helps define the distribution and that can be compared with various cultural/folk movements.

    It looks like the southern half of Italy has a lot of these people as well as the Balkan Peninsula, the Peloponnese and, of course, Anatolia. It looks like Romania, southern Poland and the Ukraine could be seen as an extension of the Balkans.

    Unfortunately I don't think they covered over into Central Asia, not that there was a lot to find there anyway.
    Many thanks for the link. I saw that Bernard posted it on eng.molgen and said that Calabria (South Italy) gets the highest percentage of this haplogroup, thing I didn't doubt of. I'll read it soon.

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    These are the ht35 frequences in different european regions:
    Pourcentage_ht35.jpg
    The maximum of frequences is in Calabria with a frequence of 23.1%.
    This is the frequences map:
    Map_ht35.jpg
    Last edited by Bernard; 05-03-2013 at 04:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard View Post
    3524 men were tested in Europe from 45 regions. 106 were R1b-ht35.
    Thanks, Bernard. I'll delete the other thread so as not to confuse everyone.

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    I speed read this one. I notice that presumed ht35 is as high in northern Iran (but very low is southern Iran) as among Armenians. Unless these northern Iranians are really Armenians then I dont think we can link the high ht35 among north Iranians to a move from the Balkans. However northern Iran is pretty close to Armenia. Maybe they were mainly Armenians. Does anyone know? If the historical account of the move of Armenians from the Balkans is correct then I suppose that makes the whole peak around Armenia area dubious in terms of origin. I dont see an origin in the extreme south of Italy as very likely although clearly it had an impact there. Clearly L23 has had phases of moving about in the eastern and central Med. historically. It also confused by multiple empires that effected the east and central Med. Overall my eye gets drawn to the Balkans in this study. However, nothing is clear. Some variance calculations would have been useful

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    Some remarks about the paper:
    1) This was called the Armenian haplogroup, and in fact each of us knew that near the Caucasus (also in Turkey) the R-L23 are above all Armenians, but Armenians are an Indo-European speaking people and their origin could be in the Balkans more than in the Caucasus.
    2) This frequency map is in contrast with the other posted by Mikewww (from Busby) which had three places of greater diffusion (Alpine Region, the Caucasus, Central Asia) and certainly that South Italy has a so high percentage is noteworthy.
    3) Lucotte says that the diffusion from Caucasus happened after the Last Glacial Maximum, thus he shouldn’t be used from the theorists who presupposed a recent diffusion of hg. R1b from East Europe or Middle East.
    4) Where now R-L23 is pretty rare but there are its subclades (at percentages near to 100%) we shouldn’t search for the ancestor where we have so many grandsons.
    5) This to say that the places where R-L23 is more diffused aren’t probably the places of origin. I always bet on a intermediate place, above all if it has all the pathway of the haplogroup, from R1b1 to R-P312* to R-U152 etc.

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    While it's not really about frequency, it is about splitting points. I've pointed out the small but dense amount of M269(xL23) in Calabria in the FTDNA Italy project which is interesting due to Myres finding strong numbers in the western Balkans (Montenegro and Serbia).
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  11. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    While it's not really about frequency, it is about splitting points. I've pointed out the small but dense amount of M269(xL23) in Calabria in the FTDNA Italy project which is interesting due to Myres finding strong numbers in the western Balkans (Montenegro and Serbia).
    And they also have the rare YCAII=17-23, which isnít limited to Calabria (see Ferrero from Piedmont), but recently I found also a Russian. I am following those people from many years and I know everything about them. But donít forget that also Calabria is a mountainous region where ancient people probably survived, and, in spite of what is said about the Greek colonization, it is a place of ancient Italic languages settlements, demonstrated by toponyms. The Arbereshet are easily detectable, like Varipapa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    It looks like the southern half of Italy has a lot of these people as well as the Balkan Peninsula.
    The southern half of Italy was settled by Greeks before the Roman empire sucked in the whole of the peninsula. It remained heavily Greek for long afterwards. I imagine that it was Italic earlier, but R1b-L23+ seems correlated with the "Balkan group" of IE languages: Greek, Armenian, Thracian etc.
    Last edited by Jean M; 05-03-2013 at 08:57 PM.

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  14. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The southern half of Italy was settled by Greeks before the Roman empire sucked in the whole of the peninsula. It remained heavily Greek for long afterwards. I imagine that it was Italic earlier, but R1b-L23+ seems correlated with the "Balkan group" of IE languages: Greek, Armenian, Thracian etc.
    If this were true, we should have found in Southern Italy some R-L23 “ Balkan cluster”, but it isn’t so. The “Balkan cluster” found belong to Arbereshet (Ciulla) and Varipapa is R-Z2110+, not found so far in Italy and I think it won’t be found in the future. R-L23+ is at least 4% in Tuscany (1KGP) and much more in the Alpine zone, not colonized by Greeks. As I have said, the link with the Balkans and the Caucasus is much older, and it isn’t said from East to West rather than from West to East.

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