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Thread: New study on R1b Ht35 published by Lucotte

  1. #21
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    I was just thinking L23* (I just use that as shorthand) seems to have that classic peak at the edge of its main distribution. Another thing I would say about the L23* map in the new report is its broad brush. For example we know from the recent Bulgaria study that it is MUCH higher at the Black Sea coast than inland or compared to Bulgaria as a whole. We also know from another recent paper it is also elevated in Moldovia, a near-Black Sea country linked to Romania culturally and linguistically. The broadbrush sampling of this paper does blur this Black Sea concentration somewhat. I would still be most comfortable with the term circumpontic for this group even if it is a bit of a cop out. Clearly today it is more elevated along the north, south and south-east coasts of the Black Sea as well as the peaks in Albania and Italy that this paper does identify. My impression from this and other papers is that it is not so high in the mountanous inland areas of the Balkans than around its coastal fringe.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I speed read this one. I notice that presumed ht35 is as high in northern Iran (but very low is southern Iran) as among Armenians. Unless these northern Iranians are really Armenians then I dont think we can link the high ht35 among north Iranians to a move from the Balkans. However northern Iran is pretty close to Armenia. Maybe they were mainly Armenians. Does anyone know? If the historical account of the move of Armenians from the Balkans is correct then I suppose that makes the whole peak around Armenia area dubious in terms of origin. I dont see an origin in the extreme south of Italy as very likely although clearly it had an impact there. Clearly L23 has had phases of moving about in the eastern and central Med. historically. It also confused by multiple empires that effected the east and central Med. Overall my eye gets drawn to the Balkans in this study. However, nothing is clear. Some variance calculations would have been useful
    Why would you assume that they are Armenians? most studies that have tested the Armenians/Assyrians of Iraq have stated they tested them and didn't try to pass them off as ethnic Iranians? I recall ht35 being just as common in SW Iran(Luristan) and the Caspian coast as in NW Iran(the area closest to Armenia) anyways.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought L23 originated in the Balkans.
    Jean: No need to apologize. It was Rathna who, at least to me, seemed to be proposing this.
     

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  4. #24
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    Interesting indeed, thanks. One wonders if flooding in this area may have sent either waves (if you will pardon the pun), or a single wave, of people both east and west at the right time to have contributed significantly to current R1b.
     

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Why would you assume that they are Armenians?
    He is not assuming this. The conjunction "as" is implying "Northern Iran" and "Armenians" are parallel, not identical.
     

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Why would you assume that they are Armenians? most studies that have tested the Armenians/Assyrians of Iraq have stated they tested them and didn't try to pass them off as ethnic Iranians? I recall ht35 being just as common in SW Iran(Luristan) and the Caspian coast as in NW Iran(the area closest to Armenia) anyways.
    This paper did show a vastly higher total in northern than southern Iran (I have no idea what the ethnicities were - I would hope that they did check ethnic minorities in their sampling). I only raised Armenians and Hittites because many think they link the Balkans and Anatolia/Armenia. I actually have never been 100% convinced by the historic Balkans-Anatolia moves and I only raised them because many do believe in this sort of move. There are also considerable links between northern Anatolia and the Balkans in the Mesolithic and Neolithic. Basically I was looking for a common denomenator that links both areas and the Mesopotamian and Assyrian link is harder to see as a common denomenator between the SE European, Anatolian and SW Asian areas. However, noone knows really. There was a Mesopotanian link with Maykop at the origin of the Circumpontic Metallurgical Provence c. 4000-3000BC so I wouldnt rule out that sort of link either although its more hazy to define.

    This study is broad brush and recent studies of Bulgaria and Moldovia do suggest that national averages such as in the recent report mask the Black Sea concentration of L23*. The further concetration in Albania and south Italy is not entirely new although much more striking than previously thought. This again suggest a coastal distribution - the Bulgaria paper already having demostrated that L23* massively fades inland from the Black Sea. Armenia as well in of course close to the Black Sea.

    The term circumpontic should not be seen as too literal though - it takes in lots of land some distance away from the Black Sea including northern Mesopotamia and the steppes. Whatever its origin it does look to pick up its frequency in the circumpontic zone as the Black Sea is approached and it seems to have found some success in that zone whether or not it was the origin. So much of the Neolithic shore has been lost that we may be missing something important. A recent paper suggests that there are hints that the northern shoreline of the Black Sea also once featured Neolithic groups with links to the south but this is largely submerged (the only likely area for fruitful land based future research being the Crimean where the ancient shore has changed little). its still all a mystery and you are right in the sense that ethnic labels are not helpful and pretty speculative anyway given the passing of 6000 years or so since L23*.

  7. #27
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    Another obvious observation is that in SE Europe L23* clearly is higher in the areas where Slavic intursions were less and falls away very roughy where Slavic languages are spoken in the western Balkans north of Albania. Its not a perfect correlation but its pretty strong (Moldovia I believe speak Romanian has a lot of L23* too). So, one thing that must be borne in mind is that the modern European distribution has likely been significantly altered by the Slavic expansion and may have been somewhat different in pre-Slavic expansion times.
    Last edited by alan; 05-04-2013 at 01:25 PM.

  8. #28
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    I must say though that the conclusions and dating in this report look ropey. I dont really understand the reasoning to pinpoint Armenia as the origin point. That seems to be purely based on that area being the highest non-European frequency. Is there anything to be learned from the haplotypes in this paper? Variance by area? Its also a pity that an overall map of projected L23* in Asia wasnt included.

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     Silesian (05-05-2013)

  10. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I must say though that the conclusions and dating in this report look ropey. I dont really understand the reasoning to pinpoint Armenia as the origin point. That seems to be purely based on that area being the highest non-European frequency. Is there anything to be learned from the haplotypes in this paper? Variance by area? Its also a pity that an overall map of projected L23* in Asia wasnt included.
    There isn't any. Maybe because all the people calling the Armenian highlands the cradle of civilization and calling it the IE homeland(despite claims against both) has started to have an impact on research.

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I must say though that the conclusions and dating in this report look ropey. I dont really understand the reasoning to pinpoint Armenia as the origin point. That seems to be purely based on that area being the highest non-European frequency. Is there anything to be learned from the haplotypes in this paper? Variance by area? Its also a pity that an overall map of projected L23* in Asia wasnt included.
    It's natural to want to know where are R1b ancestors are from and the paths they took. Even how we are related in the grand scheme of things to our branched neighbors like R2 and Q[for me anyway]. Armenian is technically a Indo-European language and all R1b who post here on the forum share ancestral snp's like R-M269 and L23 with them. It would be nice to see some Armenians with ydna R1b actually post here and contribute. However, I agree it looks a little short on some specifics like variance by area.
    Last edited by Silesian; 05-06-2013 at 04:33 AM.
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