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Thread: How Did U152 Get to England & Scotland?

  1. #61
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    U152>FGC22501>A12416
    mtDNA (M)
    J1b1a1-T146C!

    Devon England Scotland Northern Ireland
    Yes. This is clearly evident in FTDNA's FGC22501 Project. U152>FGC22501>Y37744 descendants from NE Gaul spread north (Scandinavia), west (to Britain), and east (Czech, Latvia).
    Fatherline: Rb1>M269>ZZ11>U152>L2>FGC22501>Y37744>A12416. MDKA : William Searell/Searle (1595-1656) Staverton Parish South Devon.

    Surnames - Devon: Searell/Searle, Skinner, Edwards, Whiteway, Michelmore, Smerdon, Leare, Trist, Dashper, Warren, Dodd, Hext, Palk, Langcastle, Caunter.

    Motherline: J1b1a1. MDKA : Elizabeth Randle (1800-1876), Eatington, Warwickshire, England.

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  3. #62
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    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bt
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    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Is this U152 in the Anglo-Scottish Borders from subclade Z56 which is common in Italy?
    Just saw your post. Not really.
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...H1d-mTIJTscvsY

    Mostly L2 which is to be expected as a lot Roman Auxiliaries came from the L2 heavy Low Countries. Z56 in Britain appears to be more concentrated Somerset, Dorset, Wiltshire and in Manchester/Leeds area.
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...G1Fg0bQjPV1YKg
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-02-2021 at 11:34 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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  5. #63
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    U152-L135

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Just saw your post. Not really.
    [
    Mostly L2 which is to be expected as a lot Roman Auxiliaries came from the L2 heavy Low Countries.
    Don't forget, it is perfectly possible that L2 was already in Britain before the Romans appeared. It is not impossible that the Iceni were L2 as concentrations in East Anglia are often found along the Norfok/Suffolk border areas - their homeland. It is probable that L2 may have come especially to eastern England, through various channels over time; medieval traders, Roman auxiliaries, pre-Roman settlers or even Normans. Even with more knowledge, it could take some untangling to work out which groups came when.

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  7. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceni View Post
    Don't forget, it is perfectly possible that L2 was already in Britain before the Romans appeared. It is not impossible that the Iceni were L2 as concentrations in East Anglia are often found along the Norfok/Suffolk border areas - their homeland. It is probable that L2 may have come especially to eastern England, through various channels over time; medieval traders, Roman auxiliaries, pre-Roman settlers or even Normans. Even with more knowledge, it could take some untangling to work out which groups came when.
    Agreed, I think the odds are definitely in favour of the Iceni (possibly identical with Caesar's Cenimagni) having been an L2-rich group. Though later arrivals are of course entirely plausible, I think most of the L2 in Britain so far is firmly local in origin, possibly arriving from the LBA onwards (first with Urnfield).
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  9. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceni View Post
    Don't forget, it is perfectly possible that L2 was already in Britain before the Romans appeared. It is not impossible that the Iceni were L2 as concentrations in East Anglia are often found along the Norfok/Suffolk border areas - their homeland. It is probable that L2 may have come especially to eastern England, through various channels over time; medieval traders, Roman auxiliaries, pre-Roman settlers or even Normans. Even with more knowledge, it could take some untangling to work out which groups came when.
    It would take me an inordinate amount of time to find every post I’ve made about U152 being in Britain pre Roman, possibly going back to Bell Beaker timeframe.
    Just yesterday I posted about the Únětice being a possible source.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post753880

    here’s 2 from 5 years ago about the Iceni.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post128266

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post137584

    And from 4 years ago

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post241892

    Suffice it to say, I totally agree that U152 and L2 were in Britain prior to the Romans.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-03-2021 at 12:48 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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  11. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    It would take me an inordinate amount of time to find every post I’ve made about U152 being in Britain pre Roman, possibly going back to Bell Beaker timeframe.
    Just yesterday I posted about the Únětice being a possible source.

    [
    Yes, "Mitchell" I'm not seeking to argue with you but you made a statement about the Romans that as a standalone comment could have been misleading to someone just coming to the the thread, and I wanted to just qualify it.

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  13. #67
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    most likely J-L210
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    K1b2b

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    It would take me an inordinate amount of time to find every post I’ve made about U152 being in Britain pre Roman, possibly going back to Bell Beaker timeframe.
    Just yesterday I posted about the Únětice being a possible source.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post753880

    here’s 2 from 5 years ago about the Iceni.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post128266

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post137584

    And from 4 years ago

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post241892

    Suffice it to say, I totally agree that U152 and L2 were in Britain prior to the Romans.
    I suspect that the British/American samples in my L2 branch (BY3604+) are a good example of a pre-Roman L2 presence in Britain.
    MDKA: Robert Boulay, b. 1631, Réveillon, Orne, France
    Y-DNA: R1b-U152 > L2 > Z367 > Z34 > Z33 > BY164497> BY3604

    Maternal Y-DNA: J2a-M67 > Z1847 > Y4036 > Z467 > Z447> L210

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  15. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Searell View Post
    One of the York Gladiator Skeletons, DRIF-22, was U152>L2>FGC22501>Y37744>A12416>BY3497. Scaled innovation estimates Y37744 was in NE Gaul (1300BCE), and A12416 in Britain 410BCE. This fits with a Halstatt or perhaps early La Tene Celtic time frame, late Bronze, early Iron. His DNA profile matches most closely modern Welsh, and his Isotope profile fits SW Britain. I agree however that U152 seems to have been filtering into Britain since that time.
    I don't think 6DT22 was a Briton for very long. I think he's closer to a Roman-era West Germanic or Belgae (or a northern Gaul).
    Now going forward at least as early as from the Roman to the Migration Era, it's fairly accepted that Germanic increases in the Isles. And that's not to say others of that subclade did not cross the Channel earlier (like the BA).


    Target: England_Roman:6DT22
    Distance: 0.8488% / 0.00848811
    15.0 Corded_Ware_POL_early
    11.6 DEU_Anselfingen_FN
    11.0 DEU_LBK_KD
    10.4 NLD_BA
    9.4 England_EMBA
    9.0 HUN_LBA
    8.0 Iberia_Mallorca_EBA
    7.2 KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA
    4.4 DEU_Meso_TGM
    3.2 England_Saxon
    2.8 CHE_IA
    2.8 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
    2.4 SWE_LN_low_res
    1.6 FRA_Hauts_De_France_MN
    1.2 CZE_Starounetice_EBA

    ^^This was even offering England_Roman average as one of the choices!
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 03-03-2021 at 11:48 PM.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  17. #69
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    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
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    H37

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    I posted before, that I thought my own line was Roman or Iron Age arrival to Britain, but with the revelation that Viking sample VK40 is U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150 like me; I now have to consider a much later arrival to the Isles.

    This branch is also found in 2300 BC Czech Bell Beaker. There are so many possible time of arrival scenarios for even this small branch of U152.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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  19. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I posted before, that I thought my own line was Roman or Iron Age arrival to Britain, but with the revelation that Viking sample VK40 is U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150 like me; I now have to consider a much later arrival to the Isles.

    This branch is also found in 2300 BC Czech Bell Beaker. There are so many possible time of arrival scenarios for even this small branch of U152.
    Need to make a correction to the above. It appears this ancient sample was found in a Únětice culture context.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-06-2021 at 12:53 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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