How Did U152 Get to England & Scotland?

[Searell]

Yes. This is clearly evident in FTDNA's FGC22501 Project. U152>FGC22501>Y37744 descendants from NE Gaul spread north (Scandinavia), west (to Britain), and east (Czech, Latvia).

[MitchellSince1893]

Is this U152 in the Anglo-Scottish Borders from subclade Z56 which is common in Italy?

Just saw your post. Not really.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...H1d-mTIJTscvsY

Mostly L2 which is to be expected as a lot Roman Auxiliaries came from the L2 heavy Low Countries. Z56 in Britain appears to be more concentrated Somerset, Dorset, Wiltshire and in Manchester/Leeds area.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...G1Fg0bQjPV1YKg

[Iceni]

Just saw your post. Not really.
[
Mostly L2 which is to be expected as a lot Roman Auxiliaries came from the L2 heavy Low Countries.

Don't forget, it is perfectly possible that L2 was already in Britain before the Romans appeared. It is not impossible that the Iceni were L2 as concentrations in East Anglia are often found along the Norfok/Suffolk border areas - their homeland. It is probable that L2 may have come especially to eastern England, through various channels over time; medieval traders, Roman auxiliaries, pre-Roman settlers or even Normans. Even with more knowledge, it could take some untangling to work out which groups came when.

[Agamemnon]

Don't forget, it is perfectly possible that L2 was already in Britain before the Romans appeared. It is not impossible that the Iceni were L2 as concentrations in East Anglia are often found along the Norfok/Suffolk border areas - their homeland. It is probable that L2 may have come especially to eastern England, through various channels over time; medieval traders, Roman auxiliaries, pre-Roman settlers or even Normans. Even with more knowledge, it could take some untangling to work out which groups came when.

Agreed, I think the odds are definitely in favour of the Iceni (possibly identical with Caesar's Cenimagni) having been an L2-rich group. Though later arrivals are of course entirely plausible, I think most of the L2 in Britain so far is firmly local in origin, possibly arriving from the LBA onwards (first with Urnfield).

[MitchellSince1893]

Don't forget, it is perfectly possible that L2 was already in Britain before the Romans appeared. It is not impossible that the Iceni were L2 as concentrations in East Anglia are often found along the Norfok/Suffolk border areas - their homeland. It is probable that L2 may have come especially to eastern England, through various channels over time; medieval traders, Roman auxiliaries, pre-Roman settlers or even Normans. Even with more knowledge, it could take some untangling to work out which groups came when.

It would take me an inordinate amount of time to find every post I’ve made about U152 being in Britain pre Roman, possibly going back to Bell Beaker timeframe.
Just yesterday I posted about the Únětice being a possible source.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post753880

here’s 2 from 5 years ago about the Iceni.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post128266

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post137584

And from 4 years ago

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post241892

Suffice it to say, I totally agree that U152 and L2 were in Britain prior to the Romans.

[Iceni]

It would take me an inordinate amount of time to find every post I’ve made about U152 being in Britain pre Roman, possibly going back to Bell Beaker timeframe.
Just yesterday I posted about the Únětice being a possible source.

[

Yes, "Mitchell" I'm not seeking to argue with you but you made a statement about the Romans that as a standalone comment could have been misleading to someone just coming to the the thread, and I wanted to just qualify it.

[alchemist223]

It would take me an inordinate amount of time to find every post I’ve made about U152 being in Britain pre Roman, possibly going back to Bell Beaker timeframe.
Just yesterday I posted about the Únětice being a possible source.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post753880

here’s 2 from 5 years ago about the Iceni.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post128266

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post137584

And from 4 years ago

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post241892

Suffice it to say, I totally agree that U152 and L2 were in Britain prior to the Romans.

I suspect that the British/American samples in my L2 branch (BY3604+) are a good example of a pre-Roman L2 presence in Britain.

[Dewsloth]

One of the York Gladiator Skeletons, DRIF-22, was U152>L2>FGC22501>Y37744>A12416>BY3497. Scaled innovation estimates Y37744 was in NE Gaul (1300BCE), and A12416 in Britain 410BCE. This fits with a Halstatt or perhaps early La Tene Celtic time frame, late Bronze, early Iron. His DNA profile matches most closely modern Welsh, and his Isotope profile fits SW Britain. I agree however that U152 seems to have been filtering into Britain since that time.

I don't think 6DT22 was a Briton for very long. I think he's closer to a Roman-era West Germanic or Belgae (or a northern Gaul).
Now going forward at least as early as from the Roman to the Migration Era, it's fairly accepted that Germanic increases in the Isles. And that's not to say others of that subclade did not cross the Channel earlier (like the BA).


Target: England_Roman:6DT22
Distance: 0.8488% / 0.00848811
15.0 Corded_Ware_POL_early
11.6 DEU_Anselfingen_FN
11.0 DEU_LBK_KD
10.4 NLD_BA
9.4 England_EMBA
9.0 HUN_LBA
8.0 Iberia_Mallorca_EBA
7.2 KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA
4.4 DEU_Meso_TGM
3.2 England_Saxon
2.8 CHE_IA
2.8 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
2.4 SWE_LN_low_res
1.6 FRA_Hauts_De_France_MN
1.2 CZE_Starounetice_EBA

^^This was even offering England_Roman average as one of the choices!

[MitchellSince1893]

I posted before, that I thought my own line was Roman or Iron Age arrival to Britain, but with the revelation that Viking sample VK40 is U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150 like me; I now have to consider a much later arrival to the Isles.

This branch is also found in 2300 BC Czech Bell Beaker. There are so many possible time of arrival scenarios for even this small branch of U152.

[MitchellSince1893]

I posted before, that I thought my own line was Roman or Iron Age arrival to Britain, but with the revelation that Viking sample VK40 is U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150 like me; I now have to consider a much later arrival to the Isles.

This branch is also found in 2300 BC Czech Bell Beaker. There are so many possible time of arrival scenarios for even this small branch of U152.

Need to make a correction to the above. It appears this ancient sample was found in a Únětice culture context.