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Thread: Do Bretons trace most of their lineage back to the Dumnonii tribe?

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    Do Bretons trace most of their lineage back to the Dumnonii tribe?

    Do Bretons descend mostly from the Dumnonii tribe of southwest England?

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    Hi, Historically speaking I doubt that, although it would have been the shortest distance as the crow fly's for any of them seeking refuge during the time, what Gildas says," when the heathen drove us into the sea and the sea drove us into the heathen".
    According to John Morris, "The age of Arthur". there was 3 major emigrations from Britain Major to Britain Minor, one could be argued and linked with, "Riothamus", and the securing of Amorica, others could be more of a folk migration from towns in the South of what is now England, I imagine, it was just the rich who could afford this. the last might have been more desperate attempt of real refugees possibly from Dumonia, and other places which were under threat from A/S aggression, dont forget the "Veneti", were probably genetically and linguistically very similar to the Britons/Irish anyway.

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    If they were fleeing from the Anglo-Saxons then one would imagine their ancestors were from various tribes in present day England. Plus I would imagine 400 years of Roman occupation added a level of mobility between the old tribal areas.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 10-12-2016 at 03:54 PM.
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    There are two names of historic regions of Brittany that recall the names of Cornwall and Devon:
    Cornouaille, historic bishopric, and la Dumnonée corresponding to the historic bishoprics of Leon and Tregor:

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornouaille
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    The study 'mtdna perspective of french genetic variation' (2006) showed that the British Isles had more affinities with Finistere than with Morbihan or Loire Atlantique:

    "Brittany has seen several waves of migrations, some major ones coming mostly from the British Isles (Monnier and Jj 1997). Breton belongs to the same Brythonic branch of the Insular Celtic languages as Welsh (Forster and Toth 2003). Beside this obvious linguistic link, some genetic similarities are also apparent. mtDNA Hg I, which is well represented in Finistere, has a frequency close to that of Hg I found in the British Isles). Analogous resemblance has been described for the distribution of the mutations of cystic fibrosis (CF): mutation G551D is the second most frequent mutation for CF in both areas and is considered as a mutation that arose in the British Isles (Cashman et al. 1995). The high genetic heterogeneity, still observable between different regions of Brittany, is interesting, and can be, at least in part, explained by the influence of the historic gene flows that involved different tribes coming from different areas of the British Islands. Each tribe settled down to a specific part of Brittany as illustrated by the names of different regions, which are common on both sides of the Channel (e.g. Cornouailles–Kerne in Breton and Cornwall–Kernow in Cornish). Some shared features of Bretons, especially in Finiste`re, with northern European regions reveal genetic influences of other migrations. For instance, the mtDNA sub-clade of U5a characterized with mutation at position 16291 that is notably frequent in Scandinavia is particularly present in Finiste`re. This points to the possibility that the gene flow from Scandinavia that in its major part probably took place during the Viking invasions in the 9th century was indeed intensive, even though some historians believe that the Norse expansion has mainly implicated males (Clover 1986). Another hypothesis could be that Bretons and Scandinavians have some common features dating back to the re-population of Scandinavia after the Last Glacial Maximum. A similar geographic pattern has been also revealed by the analysis of the polymorphisms of the chemokine receptor CCR5 gene (Libert et al. 1998).

    Finistere is closer to other Celtic-speaking populations (Irish, Scots, then Welsh and Cornish) than the two other departments in Brittany, because in Finistere, Hgs J and I are more frequent, while K and U2 are less frequent than in Morbihan and Loire-Atlantique. Several other haplogroups are also of particular interest. Firstly, Hg U5 is particularly frequent in Finiste`re, and one of its sub-clade characterized with mutation at position 16291 is almost restricted to this area. This type represents in Finiste`re nearly a half of its total variety in France in samples covered so far. Elsewhere, perhaps importantly, it reaches its highest diversity and frequency in Scandinavia (1.3%). Similarly, haplogroup I, with the exception of one haplotype matching the nodal position of Hg I1, which we found in Loire-Atlantique (Table SII, supplementary material), is present only in Finiste`re. With a frequency of 5.0%, it is close to the frequency of haplogroup I in nearby Cornwall and in Iceland and Finland (Table I and Table SI, supplementary material). While haplogroup frequencies offer only general comparisons, the closer affinities between mtDNA pools of northwest France and the British Isles is supported also by a common Hg I HVS-I haplotype motif 16129-16223-16235-16 391 that seems to be restricted only to these regions".

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    If they were fleeing from the Anglo-Saxons then one would imagine their ancestors were from various tribes in present day England. Plus I would imagine 400 years of Roman occupation added a level of mobility between the old tribal areas.
    Dillon and Chadwick, in their book, The Celtic Realms, argue that the Britons who went to Armorica were actually fleeing the Irish rather than the Anglo-Saxons, since the Britons of the exodus came from Cornwall and Wales, and the Anglo-Saxons had not made it that far west at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by erwangery View Post
    The study 'mtdna perspective of french genetic variation' (2006) showed that the British Isles had more affinities with Finistere than with Morbihan or Loire Atlantique:

    "Brittany has seen several waves of migrations, some major ones coming mostly from the British Isles (Monnier and Jj 1997). Breton belongs to the same Brythonic branch of the Insular Celtic languages as Welsh (Forster and Toth 2003). Beside this obvious linguistic link, some genetic similarities are also apparent. mtDNA Hg I, which is well represented in Finistere, has a frequency close to that of Hg I found in the British Isles). Analogous resemblance has been described for the distribution of the mutations of cystic fibrosis (CF): mutation G551D is the second most frequent mutation for CF in both areas and is considered as a mutation that arose in the British Isles (Cashman et al. 1995). The high genetic heterogeneity, still observable between different regions of Brittany, is interesting, and can be, at least in part, explained by the influence of the historic gene flows that involved different tribes coming from different areas of the British Islands. Each tribe settled down to a specific part of Brittany as illustrated by the names of different regions, which are common on both sides of the Channel (e.g. Cornouailles–Kerne in Breton and Cornwall–Kernow in Cornish). Some shared features of Bretons, especially in Finiste`re, with northern European regions reveal genetic influences of other migrations. For instance, the mtDNA sub-clade of U5a characterized with mutation at position 16291 that is notably frequent in Scandinavia is particularly present in Finiste`re. This points to the possibility that the gene flow from Scandinavia that in its major part probably took place during the Viking invasions in the 9th century was indeed intensive, even though some historians believe that the Norse expansion has mainly implicated males (Clover 1986). Another hypothesis could be that Bretons and Scandinavians have some common features dating back to the re-population of Scandinavia after the Last Glacial Maximum. A similar geographic pattern has been also revealed by the analysis of the polymorphisms of the chemokine receptor CCR5 gene (Libert et al. 1998).

    Finistere is closer to other Celtic-speaking populations (Irish, Scots, then Welsh and Cornish) than the two other departments in Brittany, because in Finistere, Hgs J and I are more frequent, while K and U2 are less frequent than in Morbihan and Loire-Atlantique. Several other haplogroups are also of particular interest. Firstly, Hg U5 is particularly frequent in Finiste`re, and one of its sub-clade characterized with mutation at position 16291 is almost restricted to this area. This type represents in Finiste`re nearly a half of its total variety in France in samples covered so far. Elsewhere, perhaps importantly, it reaches its highest diversity and frequency in Scandinavia (1.3%). Similarly, haplogroup I, with the exception of one haplotype matching the nodal position of Hg I1, which we found in Loire-Atlantique (Table SII, supplementary material), is present only in Finiste`re. With a frequency of 5.0%, it is close to the frequency of haplogroup I in nearby Cornwall and in Iceland and Finland (Table I and Table SI, supplementary material). While haplogroup frequencies offer only general comparisons, the closer affinities between mtDNA pools of northwest France and the British Isles is supported also by a common Hg I HVS-I haplotype motif 16129-16223-16235-16 391 that seems to be restricted only to these regions".
    historically, Brittany covers Finistère, Côtes-du-Nord (d'Armor for the tourists), Ille-et-Villaine, Morbihan and Loire-Atlantique where Breton has been spoken in extreme West until recently. More than a study has been made and the results are maybe not so simple (one about autosomes); concerning global Y-haplos the internal differences are small in Brittany.. I' ll try to find some stuff.

    a detail: if I remember well, a small region of Cornwall was named Trycer or Trecyr (bad memory!) which checks well the Breton Tregor (Treger or Bro-Dreger in Breton); could someone confirms this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by erwangery View Post
    The study 'mtdna perspective of french genetic variation' (2006) showed that the British Isles had more affinities with Finistere than with Morbihan or Loire Atlantique:

    "Brittany has seen several waves of migrations, some major ones coming mostly from the British Isles (Monnier and Jj 1997). Breton belongs to the same Brythonic branch of the Insular Celtic languages as Welsh (Forster and Toth 2003). Beside this obvious linguistic link, some genetic similarities are also apparent. mtDNA Hg I, which is well represented in Finistere, has a frequency close to that of Hg I found in the British Isles). Analogous resemblance has been described for the distribution of the mutations of cystic fibrosis (CF): mutation G551D is the second most frequent mutation for CF in both areas and is considered as a mutation that arose in the British Isles (Cashman et al. 1995). The high genetic heterogeneity, still observable between different regions of Brittany, is interesting, and can be, at least in part, explained by the influence of the historic gene flows that involved different tribes coming from different areas of the British Islands. Each tribe settled down to a specific part of Brittany as illustrated by the names of different regions, which are common on both sides of the Channel (e.g. Cornouailles–Kerne in Breton and Cornwall–Kernow in Cornish). Some shared features of Bretons, especially in Finiste`re, with northern European regions reveal genetic influences of other migrations. For instance, the mtDNA sub-clade of U5a characterized with mutation at position 16291 that is notably frequent in Scandinavia is particularly present in Finiste`re. This points to the possibility that the gene flow from Scandinavia that in its major part probably took place during the Viking invasions in the 9th century was indeed intensive, even though some historians believe that the Norse expansion has mainly implicated males (Clover 1986). Another hypothesis could be that Bretons and Scandinavians have some common features dating back to the re-population of Scandinavia after the Last Glacial Maximum. A similar geographic pattern has been also revealed by the analysis of the polymorphisms of the chemokine receptor CCR5 gene (Libert et al. 1998).

    Finistere is closer to other Celtic-speaking populations (Irish, Scots, then Welsh and Cornish) than the two other departments in Brittany, because in Finistere, Hgs J and I are more frequent, while K and U2 are less frequent than in Morbihan and Loire-Atlantique. Several other haplogroups are also of particular interest. Firstly, Hg U5 is particularly frequent in Finiste`re, and one of its sub-clade characterized with mutation at position 16291 is almost restricted to this area. This type represents in Finiste`re nearly a half of its total variety in France in samples covered so far. Elsewhere, perhaps importantly, it reaches its highest diversity and frequency in Scandinavia (1.3%). Similarly, haplogroup I, with the exception of one haplotype matching the nodal position of Hg I1, which we found in Loire-Atlantique (Table SII, supplementary material), is present only in Finiste`re. With a frequency of 5.0%, it is close to the frequency of haplogroup I in nearby Cornwall and in Iceland and Finland (Table I and Table SI, supplementary material). While haplogroup frequencies offer only general comparisons, the closer affinities between mtDNA pools of northwest France and the British Isles is supported also by a common Hg I HVS-I haplotype motif 16129-16223-16235-16 391 that seems to be restricted only to these regions".
    Does anyone know if the YDNA haplogroup DF41 is common in Brittany? Members of the Royal Stewart family of Scotland, through YDNA testing are showing to be DF41, and their ancestors are said to have come from Dol in Brittany. The Royal Stewarts are also about 2 or 3, SNPs downstream from DF41. Seems like I have read that there are Gaelic Irish surnames that are DF41, that there are DF41 men in Wales, and England, and there must be some in Scotland with many of the Royal Stewarts living in Scotland for a long time (Can't remember how much DF41 is in Scotland so, I don't know if there are that many indigenous DF41 men there. I suspect some at least).
    Last edited by fridurich; 10-21-2016 at 04:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    a detail: if I remember well, a small region of Cornwall was named Trycer or Trecyr (bad memory!) which checks well the Breton Tregor (Treger or Bro-Dreger in Breton); could someone confirms this?
    Tricorshire or Triggshire? Trigg would have meant something like "three battalions" in the same way as Treguier/Landreger in Brittany.
    https://kw.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigordh

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