Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 77

Thread: The DNA of Ashkenazi & Sephardic Jews

  1. #51
    Registered Users
    Posts
    844
    Sex
    Location
    סוף מערב
    Ethnicity
    Western Jewish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Z36123*
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c7a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-Y2619
    mtDNA (P)
    H7

    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    I personally don’t subscribe to the theory that Jews mixed almost completely with Northern Italians, i.e. I think there is room to say that Jews probably mixed with South Italians, North Italians, Swiss/S. Germans, and Iberians during the dark ages, although I’m not making any calls on how much of the admixture came from each group. The border between North Italy and South Germany wasn’t as defined back then and there were Germanic tribes roaming around Italy during that time. Also, we need a Judean DNA sample, that would help refine all of the the theories on Jewish admixture.
    I don't disagree with you at all here. But most models that take South Italians into account drop the Judaean share considerably.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to hartaisarlag For This Useful Post:

     grumpydaddybear (06-05-2020)

  3. #52
    Registered Users
    Posts
    212
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jew
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-Z26381 (I2c2)
    mtDNA (M)
    H7c2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-CTS1096+
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a9

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Ukraine Uzbekistan Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    The K1a1b1a is present in Pashtuns, Indian Jews, and Spaniards. It is present in a single known instance of an Iraqi Jewish lineage. (edit: noticed someone mentioned Pashtuns and Indian Jews already)
    What is the study with the Indian and Iraqi K1a1b1a? I would really like to read it. I assume that it is more likely that it spread from Jews to Spaniards not vice-versa then.

  4. #53
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,687
    Ethnicity
    Jewish
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-L210
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c7a
    mtDNA (P)
    HV1b2

    Israel Jerusalem
    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    What is the study with the Indian and Iraqi K1a1b1a? I would really like to read it. I assume that it is more likely that it spread from Jews to Spaniards not vice-versa then.
    I want K1a1b1a to be Judean as well, but you have to acknowledge the evidence in the other direction as well. The sibling clades are also found in and around Iberia. K1a1b1 has a Western distribution. This is the Indian Jewish study: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166/

    The Iraqi Jewish K1a1b1a belongs to someone many of us know.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to StillWater For This Useful Post:

     grumpydaddybear (06-05-2020)

  6. #54
    Registered Users
    Posts
    212
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jew
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-Z26381 (I2c2)
    mtDNA (M)
    H7c2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-CTS1096+
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a9

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Ukraine Uzbekistan Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I want K1a1b1a to be Judean as well, but you have to acknowledge the evidence in the other direction as well. The sibling clades are also found in and around Iberia. K1a1b1 has a Western distribution. This is the Indian Jewish study: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166/

    The Iraqi Jewish K1a1b1a belongs to someone many of us know.
    Like I mentioned earlier, K1a1b1 arose 14000 ybp, in pre-Neolithic times, and all the daughter clades arose during or post-Neolithic, making it possible, even likely that K1a1b1 arose in the Middle East, and that some of its daughter clades arose in the Middle East and some in Neolithic Europe. We see this with many haplogroups. Also, many of the other K1a1b1 types exist in the British Isles as well, but most people don't argue for British admixture in western Jews. For me, the K1a1b1a in Indian Jews, Iraqi Jews, and Pashtuns is the best evidence for its origin. K1a1b1a originated 4800 ybp, and can be found in Ashkenazim, Mizrahim, and Iberians. There was much less gene flow from Ashkenazim to Iraqi Jews during the Middle Ages than gene flow from Western Jews to Iberians during the Middle Ages. I am not saying that there is no evidence for Iberian origin, just that it seems to be outweighed by the evidence for MENA origin.

  7. #55
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,378
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jew
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-YP3924
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a1b1a
    mtDNA (P)
    K2a2a

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I want K1a1b1a to be Judean as well, but you have to acknowledge the evidence in the other direction as well. The sibling clades are also found in and around Iberia. K1a1b1 has a Western distribution. This is the Indian Jewish study: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166/

    The Iraqi Jewish K1a1b1a belongs to someone many of us know.
    Iraqi Jews had a very low level but still documented Syrian Jewish gene inflow during the 18th and 19th centuries - and K1a1b1a exists among Syrian Jews as we all know.
    Check out my Hidden Content

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-05-2020),  grumpydaddybear (06-05-2020),  Targum (06-05-2020)

  9. #56
    Registered Users
    Posts
    844
    Sex
    Location
    סוף מערב
    Ethnicity
    Western Jewish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Z36123*
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c7a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-Y2619
    mtDNA (P)
    H7

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Iraqi Jews had a very low level but still documented Syrian Jewish gene inflow during the 18th and 19th centuries - and K1a1b1a exists among Syrian Jews as we all know.
    Hell, a very clearly Ashkenazi downstream branch of R-Y2619 has shown up in at least one Iraqi Jew.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to hartaisarlag For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-05-2020),  Erikl86 (06-05-2020)

  11. #57
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,378
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jew
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-YP3924
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a1b1a
    mtDNA (P)
    K2a2a

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Hell, a very clearly Ashkenazi downstream branch of R-Y2619 has shown up in at least one Iraqi Jew.
    Yep. The gene flow from Syrian Jews was way too low so that really any affect it might have had on the autosomal makeup of Iraqi Jews is by now "batel b'shishim", if one is to use the halakhatic phrase, but can cause few Ashkenazi subclades to appear every now and then on the uniparental front.
    Check out my Hidden Content

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     hartaisarlag (06-05-2020)

  13. #58
    Registered Users
    Posts
    212
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jew
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-Z26381 (I2c2)
    mtDNA (M)
    H7c2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-CTS1096+
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a9

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Ukraine Uzbekistan Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Yep. The gene flow from Syrian Jews was way too low so that really any affect it might have had on the autosomal makeup of Iraqi Jews is by now "batel b'shishim", if one is to use the halakhatic phrase, but can cause few Ashkenazi subclades to appear every now and then on the uniparental front.
    I disagree. Behar showed it to be a MENA-originated R variant (rare, but do exist), meaning that the Iraqi Jew could easily have had it from a shared Judaean source with the Syrian and Ashkenazis

  14. #59
    Registered Users
    Posts
    844
    Sex
    Location
    סוף מערב
    Ethnicity
    Western Jewish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Z36123*
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c7a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-Y2619
    mtDNA (P)
    H7

    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    I disagree. Behar showed it to be a MENA-originated R variant (rare, but do exist), meaning that the Iraqi Jew could easily have had it from a shared Judaean source with the Syrian and Ashkenazis
    Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. Please seem my comprehensive thread on major Ashkenazi Y-lineages.

    Yes, R1a-Y2619 is unquestionably of Middle Eastern origin, as are several major Ashkenazi R1b branches. But look at at the phylogeny here: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y2619/. The Iraqi Jew, ERS1789562, is in a deep downstream clade with several Ashkenazim—they share an ancestor circa 375 years ago! Similar story for Turkish and Algerian Jews reported by Behar. Unlike most of the other major Ashkenazi Y-DNA branches, R-Y2619 doesn't (yet) show evidence of an upper-level connection to other Jewish communities. This is a case of Ashkenazi > Iraqi introgression.

    This is why understanding the structure of a branch is so important. Often, it reveals an early split between Ashkenazi and Sephardi (or Mizrahi) sub-branches. But sometimes, what shows up is a later introgression from one Jewish community into another.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 06-06-2020 at 01:04 AM.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to hartaisarlag For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (06-06-2020)

  16. #60
    Registered Users
    Posts
    212
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jew
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-Z26381 (I2c2)
    mtDNA (M)
    H7c2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-CTS1096+
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a9

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Ukraine Uzbekistan Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Respectfully, you have no idea what you're talking about. Please seem my comprehensive thread on major Ashkenazi Y-lineages.

    Yes, R1a-Y2619 is unquestionably of Middle Eastern origin, as are several major Ashkenazi R1b branches. But look at at the phylogeny here: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y2619/. The Iraqi Jew, ERS1789562, is in a deep downstream clade with several Ashkenazim—they share an ancestor circa 375 years ago! Similar story for Turkish and Algerian Jews reported by Behar. Unlike most of the other major Ashkenazi Y-DNA branches, R-Y2619 doesn't (yet) show evidence of an upper-level connection to other Jewish communities. This is a case of Ashkenazi > Iraqi introgression.

    This is why understanding the structure of a branch is so important. Often, it reveals an early split between Ashkenazi and Sephardi (or Mizrahi) sub-branches. But sometimes, what shows up is a later introgression from one Jewish community into another.
    I see what you're saying, but I would say this is an extremely rare case. When Mizrahim and Ashkenazim share haplogroups it usually reflects pre-exillic origin, because only a very small number of Jews travelled between Europe and Iraq during the last 500 years. That is why I defaulted to this logic. The Mizrahim and Pashtuns with K1a1b1a mentioned earlier though do not share a sub-group that formed so recently, to the best of my knowledge.

Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Sephardic jews with Gedmatch
    By vertus in forum Jewish
    Replies: 445
    Last Post: 05-11-2020, 04:26 AM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-28-2019, 07:50 AM
  3. Replies: 19
    Last Post: 12-07-2018, 12:52 AM
  4. Sephardic vs Maghreb Jews
    By Kratos in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-25-2018, 01:38 PM
  5. Sephardic Jews in Eastern Europe
    By TŠltos in forum Jewish
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-03-2016, 12:55 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •