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Thread: The DNA of Ashkenazi & Sephardic Jews

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    The DNA of Ashkenazi & Sephardic Jews

    I'm curious about the European DNA of Ashkenazim. I know that their y-DNA is (generally speaking) Levantine and in terms of their autosomal DNA on their paternal side they are also (for the most part) overwhelmingly Levantine. However -- what about their mtDNA? I've always heard most Ashkenazim mtDNA is of European origin. However where in Europe does the Ashkenazi Jew's European ancestry come from? I'm also curious about the DNA of Sephardic Jews in general. What is it composed of on both as a whole?


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    There are several groups. Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrahi (Oriental Jews). The [Israeli] Mizrahi are the largest ethnic group in Israel and are ancestral Jews of the Levant (Palestine, Israel). Persian Jews and Baghdadi.

    You may want to read these two articles. These are for the two you inquired.

    Ashkenazi mtDNA.

    "The K1a1b1 lineages within which the K1a1b1a sequences nest (including 19 lineages of known ancestry) are solely European, pointing to an ancient European ancestry."

    "K1a1b1a is also present at low frequencies in Spanish-exile Sephardic Jews, but absent from non-European Jews, including a database of 289 North African Jews"

    "K1a9 accounting for another 20% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or 6% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and also dating to ~2.3 ka with ML again includes both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi lineages solely from east Europeans"

    "K2a2 accounts for another 16% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or ~5% of total Ashkenazi lineages). Ashkenazi lineages are once more found in a shallow subclade, K2a2a1, dating to ~1.5 ka, that otherwise again includes only east Europeans, "

    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543

    Sephardic mtDNA is T with subclades.

    Sephardi

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011200a.html
    Last edited by AppalachianGumbo; 10-16-2016 at 04:59 PM.

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    very intresting chueta mtdna
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...eta_population
    k1a1b1a show up this community never have contact with aschenazi community
    so maybe k1a1b1a was present in pre diaspora jews
    regards
    adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by AppalachianGumbo View Post
    There are several groups. Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrahi (Oriental Jews). The [Israeli] Mizrahi are the largest ethnic group in Israel and are ancestral Jews of the Levant (Palestine, Israel). Persian Jews and Baghdadi.

    You may want to read these two articles. These are for the two you inquired.

    Ashkenazi mtDNA.

    "The K1a1b1 lineages within which the K1a1b1a sequences nest (including 19 lineages of known ancestry) are solely European, pointing to an ancient European ancestry."

    "K1a1b1a is also present at low frequencies in Spanish-exile Sephardic Jews, but absent from non-European Jews, including a database of 289 North African Jews"

    "K1a9 accounting for another 20% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or 6% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and also dating to ~2.3 ka with ML again includes both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi lineages solely from east Europeans"

    "K2a2 accounts for another 16% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or ~5% of total Ashkenazi lineages). Ashkenazi lineages are once more found in a shallow subclade, K2a2a1, dating to ~1.5 ka, that otherwise again includes only east Europeans, "

    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543

    Sephardic mtDNA is T with subclades.

    Sephardi

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011200a.html
    Studies based on HVR1 types only are notoriously unreliable. Also, to say "there is a Sephardic signature in haplogroup T" is not the same as saying "Sephardim are T," because the number of Sephardim who are HV, H, I, J, K, L, N, R, U, V, X, or some other clade vastly outnumber the Ts.
     

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    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logistics View Post
    I'm curious about the European DNA of Ashkenazim. I know that their y-DNA is (generally speaking) Levantine and in terms of their autosomal DNA on their paternal side they are also (for the most part) overwhelmingly Levantine. However -- what about their mtDNA? I've always heard most Ashkenazim mtDNA is of European origin. However where in Europe does the Ashkenazi Jew's European ancestry come from? I'm also curious about the DNA of Sephardic Jews in general. What is it composed of on both as a whole?

    As far as i can see the European mtDNA of Ashkenazi Jews is largely overstated. While some of it may be of European origin, most of it seems to be of Middle Eastern origin.

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    The raw autosomal DNA of your (predominantly) Ashkenazi individual is, on average, overwhelmingly Eastern Med/Levant/Red Sea/Near East (about 70% - 80%, across most Gedmatch tests). In other words, the overwhelming percentage of Ashkenazi admix comes from Middle Eastern ancestry, not European.

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    As much as I fantasize about that possibility, it doesn't look likely at all. Even if the oft-cited 50 is a lowball (which I believe it is), 70-80% basically imagines that most European ancestry among Ashkenazim is Central/Northern/Eastern European, which isn't the case. Many of the components you're alluding to are anything but rare among Italians (and Iberians, and Greeks), even if I do think the Italian contribution gets overstated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svabinsky View Post
    The raw autosomal DNA of your (predominantly) Ashkenazi individual is, on average, overwhelmingly Eastern Med/Levant/Red Sea/Near East (about 70% - 80%, across most Gedmatch tests). In other words, the overwhelming percentage of Ashkenazi admix comes from Middle Eastern ancestry, not European.
    I agree an important part of autosomal ashkenasi have a levantine origin but 70-80% is exagerated. I find Eurogenes K15 is a good determinant often corroborated by other calculators. The physical phenotype of a part of Ashkenasi is not discernible from Europeans. and to discern an Ashkenasi from a Greek or an Italian requires a trained eye and there are distinguable often by cultural expressions.

    Nord Sea___ : Ashk 9.89 Seph 5.29 Samaritan 1.11 Libanese-Christian 1.49 Greek 8.81 Austrian 20.59 Hungarian 24.08 Polish 21.76
    Atlantic_____: Ashk 10.70 Seph 14.02 Samaritan 3.28 Libanese-Christian 2.78 Greek 15.49 Austrian 23.17 Hungarian 17.29 Polish 18.55
    Baltic_______: Ashk 6.74 Seph 2.36 Samaritan 1.59 Libanese-Christian 1.14 Greek 11.70 Austrian 18.31 Hungarian 20.04 Polish 28.02
    East Europ___: Ashk 5.17 Seph 1.42 Samaritan 0.36 Libanese-Christian 0.71 Greek 6.91 Austrian 13.24 Hungarian 12.73 Polish 19.91
    Europ w/o WM:Ashk 32.50 Seph 23.09 Samaritan 6.34 Libanese-Christian 6.12 Greek 42.91 Austrian 75.31 Hungarian 74.14 Polish 88.24
    Gr
    West Mediter : Ashk 14.82 Seph 16.19 Samaritan 13.52 Libanese-Christian 11.81 Greek 17.16 Austrian 8.86 Hungarian 9.49 Polish 5.58
    Europ w. WM: Ashk 46.32 Seph 39.30 Samaritan 19.86 Libanese-Christian 17.93 Greek 60.07 Austrian 84.17 Hungarian 83.63 Polish 93.82

    West Asian__: Ashk 13.05 Seph 13.51 Samaritan 17.20 Libanese-Christian 20.20 Greek 12.72 Austrian 6.16 Hungarian 5.87 Polish 2.87
    East_Med___: Ashk 26.61 Seph 33.88 Samaritan 45.51 Libanese-Christian 47.37 Greek 23.47 Austrian 7.21 Hungarian 7.04 Polish 1.44
    Red Sea____: Ashk 8.07 Seph 9.68 Samaritan 13.84__ Libanese-Christian 12.34 Greek 2.73 Austrian 1.25 Hungarian 1.23 Polish 0.66
    Tot Mid East:Ashk 47.73 Seph 57.07 Samaritan 76.55 Libanese-Christian 79.91 Greek 38.92 Austrian 14.62 Hungarian 14.14 Polish 4.87

    The Atlantic component 14.02 for the Sepharads shows the Iberian influence.

    The proportion of Ashkenazi from Levantins of Roman Empire could be 50-60%. There is the problem of Oriental_Roman proselysts which disturbs the calculation. I think a lot of people exagerating the problem. I don't believe the relative number of proselyts compared to Original Jewishes was so important that related by the antisionists and anyway the greatest part of judaist proselysts were christianized later.

    I consider

    - Say the proportion originated from Israel greater than 65% is the fact of sionists

    - Say the proportion originated from Israel lesser than 40% is the fact of antisionists
    l
    Last edited by palamede; 11-05-2016 at 12:44 PM.

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    If the Samaritans (as well as 3DRIF-26 and the Bronze Age samples from 'Ayn Ghazal) are a good proxy for what the Judeans looked like genetically, I think Ashkenazim and Sephardim might derive between between ~58% to ~62% and ~60% to ~65% of their ancestry from the Judeans of old respectively, the rest being mostly Greek (or Italian) with minor (in some cases non-existent) Eastern European or Iberian admixture. Maghrebi Jews (by which I mean Tunisian and Libyan Jews) are another story, despite the fact that they're part of the Western Jewish cluster.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 11-06-2016 at 01:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svabinsky View Post
    The raw autosomal DNA of your (predominantly) Ashkenazi individual is, on average, overwhelmingly Eastern Med/Levant/Red Sea/Near East (about 70% - 80%, across most Gedmatch tests). In other words, the overwhelming percentage of Ashkenazi admix comes from Middle Eastern ancestry, not European.
    Yes an Ashkenazi of what is mixed heritage - with very probable Mizrahi Jews - would certainly be passable as that. There's plenty of such pro-Israel or born Israel Ashkenazi who love to overlook that little facet of life. But I do hope you know even before the Nazis came and went a large settlement of Ashkenazi was Israel and where do you think many of the Ashkenazi fled to during the Nazis' region -- Mars?

    However, can someone supply me with this "predominantly" Ashkenazi individual's kit number. I have not predominant but 100% Ashkenazi Jewish relatives & friends with no modern Mizrahi Jew influence and they definitely aren't so highly Levant based. It is quite... unfortunate for some shall we say... how those relatives match with not just history but what researchers of actual legitimate Ashkenazi families have been finding.


    Though this does raise an amusing conversation I had a few days ago with one of those Ashkenazi friends. Of how non-Jewish people continually peg the word "Ashkenazi" on any Jewish celeb they see even if the Jewish celebs don't identify their sect. It is cute when obvious Sephardi celebs are pegged as "Ashkenazi" all because the word is so commonly used.

    Such "Ashkenazi" labels has sort of become like saying all white people are British. All black people Africans. And all Asians Chinese. How amusing isn't it that fact & fiction are such utterly different kettles of fish.

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