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Thread: The DNA of Ashkenazi & Sephardic Jews

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bar View Post
    They owe about half of their autosomal DNA to an ancestral ME population according to most academic models. So basically they are grouped with europeans because their basal profile looks similar to South Italians? That doesn't explain why they are often marked as eastern/central european in 23andme though.
    No, most models do not show that. I don't think any do ,actually. Some models do show that, perhaps, the majority of paternal lines are of middle eastern origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
    No, most models do not show that. I don't think any do ,actually. Some models do show that, perhaps, the majority of paternal lines are of middle eastern origin.
    Nope most peer reviewed sources have them modeled as 50% ME, 35% Southern EU, and ~15% of something more Northern.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1006644

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bar View Post
    Nope most peer reviewed sources have them modeled as 50% ME, 35% Southern EU, and ~15% of something more Northern.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1006644
    You do realize that's not what the study actually claims. Further, you linked 1 study. The conclusion, "Nope most peer reviewed sources have them modeled as 50% ME, 35% Southern EU, and ~15% of something more Northern.", therefore, does not follow

    Before I actually link studies, let's examine what the paper says.

    " The actual admixture history might have been highly complex, including multiple geographic sources and admixture events. Moreover, due to the genetic similarity and complex history of the European populations involved (particularly in Southern Europe [51]), the multiple paths of AJ migration across Europe [10], and the strong genetic drift experienced by AJ in the late Middle Ages [9, 16], there seems to be a limit on the resolution to which the AJ admixture history can be reconstructed."

    " What is perhaps surprising is the timing of the Southern European admixture to ≈24–49 generations ago, since Jews are known to have resided in Italy already since antiquity. This result would imply no gene flow between Jews and local Italian populations almost until the turn of the millennium"



    No gene flow between communities for a 1000 years. There is, quite obviously, something wrong with the model, which they seem to acknowledge.

    Also, the study, when determining admixture %'s, conveniently ignored various ethnic groups admixture %'s.

    "Specifically, sampling is relatively sparse in North-Western and Central Europe (and particularly, Germany is missing), and sample sizes in Eastern Europe are small (10–20 individuals per population). In addition, we did not consider samples from the Caucasus (however, this is not expected to significantly affect the results [5]). We also neglected any sub-Saharan African ancestry, even though Southern European and Middle-Eastern populations (including Jews) are known to harbor low levels (≈5–10%) of such ancestry"

    Here's another one, though it's relatively minor

    "Finally, we stress that our results are based on the working hypothesis that Ashkenazi Jews are the result of admixture between primarily Middle-Eastern and European ancestors, based on previous literature [4–8] and supported by the strong localization signal of the ME source to the Levant. Strong deviations from this assumption may lead to inaccuracies in our historical model.

    Here's a study; The conclusion is that Ashkenazim are closer to numerous European populations than to any Middle Eastern group

    http://www.pnas.org/content/107/37/16222.full

    Here's another one. Conclusion is the same

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730349/

    Another one, which has the exact same conclusion. http://www.pnas.org/content/107/37/16222.full

    I could list several more. The point is, yes, there are some studies that say what you are claiming, but they are not the majority.

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    I've seen full Southern Italians and Sicilians come back more ME or Levantine than full Ashkenazi Jews. Let's also not forget that Jews have been dwelling in Italy for 2000+ years, and Italy has the oldest Jewish community, outside of Israel. Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews have mixed there for centuries.
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    Most likely fit is 68% (+- 11.8%) Europe (various subcontinents)
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    Hungary 0.7479 Jewish 0.2521
    Romania 0.9359 Jewish 0.0641
    Germany 0.6305 Sephardic 0.3695
    Hungary 0.7310 Sephardic 0.2690
    Poland 0.5583 Sephardic 0.4417


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tz85 View Post
    I've seen full Southern Italians and Sicilians come back more ME or Levantine than full Ashkenazi Jews. Let's also not forget that Jews have been dwelling in Italy for 2000+ years, and Italy has the oldest Jewish community, outside of Israel. Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews have mixed there for centuries.
    indeed
    to be honest i almost sure i got the 12% north italy or most of it in living dna from my maternal sefhardi grandfather
    dont i think i got from the aschenazi or from my bulgarian granny .....
    Last edited by kingjohn; 05-16-2018 at 04:03 PM.
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    You realize that neither of these papers actually refute that they are a hybrid population? Bray et al. 2010 (you posted the same link twice) presents the following model:

    To quantify the level of admixture within the AJ genome given the model of a Middle Eastern origin and European admixture, we applied a likelihood method (34) to differentiate the relative ancestry of each locus across the genome. We used the combined Palestinian and Druze populations to represent the Middle Eastern ancestor and tested three different European groups as the European ancestral population (SI Materials and Methods). Using these proxy ancestral populations, we calculated the amount of European admixture in the AJ population to be 35 to 55%.

    That leaves 45-65% to the ancestral ME population. A rather sizeable portion.

    The second link states:

    Possible exceptions to this observation of geographic correspondence include the Ashkenazi Jewish population. While the Ashkenazi are clearly of southern origin based on both PCA and STRUCTURE studies, in our analyses of diverse European populations (Figure 1), this group appears to have a unique genotypic pattern that may not reflect geographic origins.

    Meaning that labeling them as ''Eastern European'' is dubious at best. The paper then goes to suggest that the ashkenazi positioning near italians is likely to be incidental and a result of the admixture event that occurred involving the more nothern populations:

    Although the proximity of the AJ and Italian populations could be explained by their admixture prior to the Ashkenazi settlement in Central Europe (13), it should be noted that different demographic models may potentially yield similar principal component projections (33); thus, it is also consistent that the projection of the AJ populations is primarily the outcome of admixture with Central and Eastern European hosts that coincidentally shift them closer to Italians along principle component axes relative to Middle Easterners.


    I also noticed both papers are quite old, if you could provide something more recent that would be greatly appreciated. I provided that one link because (afaik) it is the most recent paper dedicated to Ashkenazi origins, apart from one written by Elhaik. Other studies which employ the aforementioned model just off the top of my head:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835
    https://shaicarmi.files.wordpress.co...ure_poster.pdf

    Also the anticipated paper on BA Canaanites appears to model them as ~55% levantine:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post524076

    Something that may also be of interest with regard to ancient DNA from that region:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post253600

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tz85 View Post
    I've seen full Southern Italians and Sicilians come back more ME or Levantine than full Ashkenazi Jews. Let's also not forget that Jews have been dwelling in Italy for 2000+ years, and Italy has the oldest Jewish community, outside of Israel. Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews have mixed there for centuries.
    Perhaps, as a group however they are slightly north shifted relative to Western Jews. So the answer as to why 23andme marked Ashkenazi as Central/Eastern European is because they cluster close to sicilians? That doesn't even make sense.
    West_Eurasian_ancient_DNA_PCA_plot.png
    Last edited by Bar; 05-16-2018 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bar View Post
    Perhaps, as a group however, they are more north shifted.
    people here forget aschenazi also acquired 5-8% east european admixture probably polish
    {some polish woman }
    so there is some east european dna layer and it is post bottleneck on top of the roman gene flow admixture that
    happen before the aschenazi bottleneck ....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bar View Post
    Perhaps, as a group however they are slightly north shifted relative to Western Jews. So the answer as to why 23andme marked Ashkenazi as Central/Eastern European is because they cluster close to sicilians? That doesn't even make sense.
    West_Eurasian_ancient_DNA_PCA_plot.png
    I mean, it's a know fact that full Ashkenazi Jews genetically cluster closer to Southern Italians than any other European population. Run any full Ashkenazi sample through admixture, and the main consistent european population that comes up is Southern Italian. I really don't understand why this is a shock to people. Most admixture goes back around 2000 years. This is when the Rome ruled Europe, and the Jews essentially dwelt in Southern Europe, outside of Israel.
    Jtest - Evil twin phase
    AJ + Serbian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + Ukrainian-Russian @ 5.893190

    McDonald
    Most likely fit is 68% (+- 11.8%) Europe (various subcontinents)
    and 32% (+- 11.8%) Mideast (various subcontinents)


    Hungary 0.7479 Jewish 0.2521
    Romania 0.9359 Jewish 0.0641
    Germany 0.6305 Sephardic 0.3695
    Hungary 0.7310 Sephardic 0.2690
    Poland 0.5583 Sephardic 0.4417


    Eurogenes K13
    Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + La_Brana-1 @ 5.135429

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bar View Post
    You realize that neither of these papers actually refute that they are a hybrid population? Bray et al. 2010 (you posted the same link twice) presents the following model:

    To quantify the level of admixture within the AJ genome given the model of a Middle Eastern origin and European admixture, we applied a likelihood method (34) to differentiate the relative ancestry of each locus across the genome. We used the combined Palestinian and Druze populations to represent the Middle Eastern ancestor and tested three different European groups as the European ancestral population (SI Materials and Methods). Using these proxy ancestral populations, we calculated the amount of European admixture in the AJ population to be 35 to 55%.

    That leaves 45-65% to the ancestral ME population. A rather sizeable portion.

    The second link states:

    Possible exceptions to this observation of geographic correspondence include the Ashkenazi Jewish population. While the Ashkenazi are clearly of southern origin based on both PCA and STRUCTURE studies, in our analyses of diverse European populations (Figure 1), this group appears to have a unique genotypic pattern that may not reflect geographic origins.

    Meaning that labeling them as ''Eastern European'' is dubious at best. The paper then goes to suggest that the ashkenazi positioning near italians is likely to be incidental and a result of the admixture event that occurred involving the more nothern populations:

    Although the proximity of the AJ and Italian populations could be explained by their admixture prior to the Ashkenazi settlement in Central Europe (13), it should be noted that different demographic models may potentially yield similar principal component projections (33); thus, it is also consistent that the projection of the AJ populations is primarily the outcome of admixture with Central and Eastern European hosts that coincidentally shift them closer to Italians along principle component axes relative to Middle Easterners.


    I also noticed both papers are quite old, if you could provide something more recent that would be greatly appreciated. I provided that one link because (afaik) it is the most recent paper dedicated to Ashkenazi origins, apart from one written by Elhaik. Other studies which employ the aforementioned model just off the top of my head:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835
    https://shaicarmi.files.wordpress.co...ure_poster.pdf

    Also the anticipated paper on BA Canaanites appears to model them as ~55% levantine:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post524076

    Something that may also be of interest with regard to ancient DNA from that region:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post253600


    The upcoming paper by Reich is about ancient populations, some dating over 4,000 years ago. It's also pure speculation. I never once stated that Ashkenazim are not a hybrid. They absolutely are. They are a hybrid that was formed in Europe, and are distinct from, not only other Europeans, but other Jewish populations. I don't know of any one that would dispute that the Ashkenazim were formed in Europe. That's the whole point. Exact admixture %'s for ancient populations is another matter. I get quite a bit of Near East when I run certain calculators, but I'm not going to claim I'm Near Eastern, when my nearest Near Ancestor lived a few thousand years ago. Yes, Ashkenazim can trace certain lines to the Middle East, though they moved to Europe, in most cases, approximately 2000 years ago. Now, you can claim these people as Middle Eastern. That's fine. I would not. That's all
    Last edited by Archimedes; 05-16-2018 at 05:34 PM.

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