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Thread: Any members of the I-Z140 Project here?

  1. #401
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    Groovy - thanks for the screenshots. There was a while when there were two folks at I-A12974 - one with a Belgium flag and one with unknown. Now there's just the Belgian flag at I-A12974 so assuming the Ireland flag kit is a later test, matched four SNPs with the unknown kit and moved them down to a new branch.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  3. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Groovy - thanks for the screenshots. There was a while when there were two folks at I-A12974 - one with a Belgium flag and one with unknown. Now there's just the Belgian flag at I-A12974 so assuming the Ireland flag kit is a later test, matched four SNPs with the unknown kit and moved them down to a new branch.

    Just out of curiosity, how many Private Variants do you have left over, now that you’ve match the other fellow?
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  5. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how many Private Variants do you have left over, now that you’ve match the other fellow?
    At YFull, I have 23 in total, so I guess taking out the four I that I share with these two out, that gets me down to 19. However, among that 19 there are three that are tagged as homologous in the X-transposed region and two more that YSEQ rejected for Wish a SNP as they were too similar to some regions on autosomal chromosomes. There's also one of my private SNPs that isn't novel because it's on the YFull tree under haplogroup O. For age estimation, YFull are using 16 SNPs. However, FTDNA may use some of the homologous ones that YFull doesn't - that's already the case with FGC74335 which is on the FTDNA tree as a parallel branch to I-FGC74348 - however, I'm positive for FGC74335 so that would be phylogenetically inconsistent. FTDNA also likely to use more from the centromere, DYZ19, etc. although I'm not sure if all of those go on the block tree. There's probably 1-2 SNPs that my WGS picks up that get missed in the Big Y. At least a couple of novels had disappeared from my YFull list - not sure why, perhaps they were found in too many localizations. I guess it depends how you count the SNPs. If I could persuade these fellows to join YFull or if I did Big Y we'd have a like to like comparison on the same platform.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  7. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    At YFull, I have 23 in total, so I guess taking out the four I that I share with these two out, that gets me down to 19. However, among that 19 there are three that are tagged as homologous in the X-transposed region and two more that YSEQ rejected for Wish a SNP as they were too similar to some regions on autosomal chromosomes. There's also one of my private SNPs that isn't novel because it's on the YFull tree under haplogroup O. For age estimation, YFull are using 16 SNPs. However, FTDNA may use some of the homologous ones that YFull doesn't - that's already the case with FGC74335 which is on the FTDNA tree as a parallel branch to I-FGC74348 - however, I'm positive for FGC74335 so that would be phylogenetically inconsistent. FTDNA also likely to use more from the centromere, DYZ19, etc. although I'm not sure if all of those go on the block tree. There's probably 1-2 SNPs that my WGS picks up that get missed in the Big Y. At least a couple of novels had disappeared from my YFull list - not sure why, perhaps they were found in too many localizations. I guess it depends how you count the SNPs. If I could persuade these fellows to join YFull or if I did Big Y we'd have a like to like comparison on the same platform.

    I know from my test that Family Tree does use SNPs from the DYZ19 region on their Block Tree because two of them are in my main branch. In our case it appears that some of us are positive or no calls for those two. Although, I was only able to check three of the five people involved (2 were positive and I was a no call in 700 and positive in 500). So we may not be representative.

    I was wondering if you were close to the other three fellows who all have 14 Private Variant and it sounds like you may be. If you remove the 5 dubious SNPs or only use the solid ones in YFull’s Age Estimation.

    Nothing new on the Block Tree.
    Last edited by JMcB; 07-27-2021 at 04:36 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  9. #405
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    I cracked and ordered the Big Y700 while it was on the summer sale. A large part of the cost was sunk into the Y111 which I had at FTDNA back in 2016 when I was first getting into genetic genealogy. Previous to that I'd had a 23andme test which was the first one that told me I was I1. It does seem a bit surplus given that I took FGC's YElite as my first NGS test and followed that up with a WGS from YSEQ. I still think WGS is the best test, but there is something to be said for the size of the database of Y-DNA testers that FTDNA has and the group projects that they have there. There's a lot of things I'm not keen on with FTDNA - some of the things that they have done in recent years with regard to changing their terms of service for customers and project admins, their attempted monopolization of the Y-DNA testing and analysis market, their lack on innovation in analysis - everything they've added in recent years is an adaptation of something pioneered by another provider, with the exception of a step chart that seemed to confuse most customers and now seems to have disappeared. But in this case I have two examples of folks that are on my branch downstream of I-L338, and FTDNA is the only place they're at currently, so Big Y it is and the upgrade price from Y111 wasn't too unreasonable.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  11. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    I cracked and ordered the Big Y700 while it was on the summer sale. A large part of the cost was sunk into the Y111 which I had at FTDNA back in 2016 when I was first getting into genetic genealogy. Previous to that I'd had a 23andme test which was the first one that told me I was I1. It does seem a bit surplus given that I took FGC's YElite as my first NGS test and followed that up with a WGS from YSEQ. I still think WGS is the best test, but there is something to be said for the size of the database of Y-DNA testers that FTDNA has and the group projects that they have there. There's a lot of things I'm not keen on with FTDNA - some of the things that they have done in recent years with regard to changing their terms of service for customers and project admins, their attempted monopolization of the Y-DNA testing and analysis market, their lack on innovation in analysis - everything they've added in recent years is an adaptation of something pioneered by another provider, with the exception of a step chart that seemed to confuse most customers and now seems to have disappeared. But in this case I have two examples of folks that are on my branch downstream of I-L338, and FTDNA is the only place they're at currently, so Big Y it is and the upgrade price from Y111 wasn't too unreasonable.
    In the long run it’s probably better to have your results in as many places as possible. So I think it’ll pay off in the end. Beyond the the two fellows you’re about to match.

    What was the step chart? I must have missed (or ignored) that.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  13. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    In the long run it’s probably better to have your results in as many places as possible. So I think it’ll pay off in the end. Beyond the the two fellows you’re about to match.

    What was the step chart? I must have missed (or ignored) that.
    Yes, I agree. It's definitely the case for autosomal DNA and it's probably even more true for Y-DNA as there's less testers at that level and places to compare.

    The step chart doesn't seem to be discussed anymore, so I get the impression that FTDNA quietly retired it. There's an example here in the DNA-explained blog by Roberta Estes - if you scroll down to "matching" you'll see what I mean. https://dna-explained.com/2018/01/12...-results-hg38/

    This was part of FTDNA's restriction of not sharing less than 30 or fewer differences in SNPs that led to several people having zero on all steps of their step tree, despite having people on that branch. Looking through our I-Z140 facebook group, I looked through some historical posts when another member was complaining about it and you replied "I’m in the same boat, Zero matches all the way up the tree! Nonsense!" - if you've forgotten about it, it's for the best. But it's another reason why I'm not keen for FTDNA to become a monopoly on NGS Y-DNA testing and analysis.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  15. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Yes, I agree. It's definitely the case for autosomal DNA and it's probably even more true for Y-DNA as there's less testers at that level and places to compare.

    The step chart doesn't seem to be discussed anymore, so I get the impression that FTDNA quietly retired it. There's an example here in the DNA-explained blog by Roberta Estes - if you scroll down to "matching" you'll see what I mean. https://dna-explained.com/2018/01/12...-results-hg38/

    This was part of FTDNA's restriction of not sharing less than 30 or fewer differences in SNPs that led to several people having zero on all steps of their step tree, despite having people on that branch. Looking through our I-Z140 facebook group, I looked through some historical posts when another member was complaining about it and you replied "I’m in the same boat, Zero matches all the way up the tree! Nonsense!" - if you've forgotten about it, it's for the best. But it's another reason why I'm not keen for FTDNA to become a monopoly on NGS Y-DNA testing and analysis.

    That’s funny, I forgot all about that! If I remember correctly, they phased it out right after I got a match.

    I agree! Personally, I think FT should send YFull a thank you note because they’re a better company now than they used to be, because of them.
    Last edited by JMcB; 08-09-2021 at 02:26 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  17. #409
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    Fascinating stuff here and I can see I’ve got some catching up to do, especially on the ancient DNA front! I’ve been out of action this year but should have a bit more time to dip in occasionally now I hope.

    I had an interesting development some months back when a new FTDNA match bumped me from A21912 to FT354407 (interestingly, he traces his 18th century ancestry to a place in southern Sweden 100 miles from the 18th century ancestor of my first Swedish match who’s now upstream of us). I haven’t had much time to ponder it yet but you can see the three of us on YFull if you’re interested. It’s good that me and my original Swede took the plunge and upgraded to BY700.

    Looking more broadly at my wider S12289 branch and its modern distribution on FTDNA this morning (TMRCA of 2,800 ybp, YFull), as I once did in a bit more depth in a post on this forum, I can’t help thinking that that marker may have originated somewhere in the vicinity of today’s Fyn (Funen). That would put it on the edge of the Anglian cultural horizon later on, bringing movement to Britain via those people in the Migration Period, as well as seeing other descendant lines subsequently spread via the Danes both to Britain and Ireland and within Scandinavia (including Skne of course).

    I think a Fyn theory might explain the relative weightings of Scotland, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden and others within S12289 compared with I-M253 (higher in the first three cases and lower in the latter). We know that there was considerable movement southward and westward from Jutland and its surrounds in the Migration Period (see just about any scholar including Myres and Hines), while in the Viking period it may have been broadly in the other direction: "Gene flow within Scandinavia appears to be broadly northwards, dominated by Danish Vikings moving into what are now Norway and Sweden” (Margaryan et al).

    Anyway, it’s just a working idea and the modern sample sizes are small, but it’s also interesting that the only ancient S12289 sample so far, VK327, was from Ribe, Denmark.

    I hope everyone here is well and all the best to you. Anthrogenica is a great community and I’ve missed it.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Closest matches: Sweden; TMRCA 1,300 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  19. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Fascinating stuff here and I can see I’ve got some catching up to do, especially on the ancient DNA front! I’ve been out of action this year but should have a bit more time to dip in occasionally now I hope.

    I had an interesting development some months back when a new FTDNA match bumped me from A21912 to FT354407 (interestingly, he traces his 18th century ancestry to a place in southern Sweden 100 miles from the 18th century ancestor of my first Swedish match who’s now upstream of us). I haven’t had much time to ponder it yet but you can see the three of us on YFull if you’re interested. It’s good that me and my original Swede took the plunge and upgraded to BY700.

    Looking more broadly at my wider S12289 branch and its modern distribution on FTDNA this morning (TMRCA of 2,800 ybp, YFull), as I once did in a bit more depth in a post on this forum, I can’t help thinking that that marker may have originated somewhere in the vicinity of today’s Fyn (Funen). That would put it on the edge of the Anglian cultural horizon later on, bringing movement to Britain via those people in the Migration Period, as well as seeing other descendant lines subsequently spread via the Danes both to Britain and Ireland and within Scandinavia (including Skne of course).

    I think a Fyn theory might explain the relative weightings of Scotland, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden and others within S12289 compared with I-M253 (higher in the first three cases and lower in the latter). We know that there was considerable movement southward and westward from Jutland and its surrounds in the Migration Period (see just about any scholar including Myres and Hines), while in the Viking period it may have been broadly in the other direction: "Gene flow within Scandinavia appears to be broadly northwards, dominated by Danish Vikings moving into what are now Norway and Sweden” (Margaryan et al).

    Anyway, it’s just a working idea and the modern sample sizes are small, but it’s also interesting that the only ancient S12289 sample so far, VK327, was from Ribe, Denmark.

    I hope everyone here is well and all the best to you. Anthrogenica is a great community and I’ve missed it.
    Great to have you back on the forum JonikW - I've missed having you around through conversations and posts.

    I'm about to head out for a football game, so I'll have a better read of your post later. Just thought I'd point out we have a bit more in the I-S12289 branch lately - most recent is a very interesting sample TAQ009 that JMcB reported after teepean47 scanned the data with an automated caller which suggested I-Y4015 downstream of I-S12289. I've checked the BAM file manually and it matches up. This sample is from Tarquinia, Italy and the dataset has the title "The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect" - we're in a bit of the opposite position to normal as we have the raw data but no paper, archaeological context or dating. From his autosomal DNA, TAQ009 looks rather Southern European, so not a visitor or recent migrant. That's a really interesting one so looking forward to finding out more when a paper is published.

    Also worth checking out is HGH-1600 on I-Y8334 branch downstream of I-S12289 that comes from a paper on a plague outbreak in Medieval Lbeck and also managed to move VK327 from the Viking World paper further downstream to I-Y8334. VK337 was initially at I-A2094 at YFull, but they have since moved it back to I-Z140. his is probably due to phylogenetic inconsistencies in upstream SNPs - for example VK337 shows ancestral reads for YSC0000261 (1C), Z2535 (1G) - then again, these are one read SNPs and could be false negatives. FTDNA has placed this sample at I-Z61 with comment possible Z140, later updating to I-BY31739, which is phyloequivalent to A2094.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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