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Thread: Any members of the I-Z140 Project here?

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillMC View Post
    Gordon is a common surname in NE Scotland. When I first put my BritainDNA data onto the I-140 Project William Heartly found a match from the NE Scotland by the name of Gordon.

    The only DNA research I am planning in the forseeable future is to explore more of my autosomonial DNA and my mtDNA line. The Big Y test will mean spending too much money on something that I have a good idea of the end result. Even if I am not S12289, at least I will know that I am roughly in the region of L338.
    Yes, there's a lot of Gordons in NE Scotland and most of the I1 fall into what their DNA project calls the "Jock and Tam" branch along with the R1b "Seton Gordons", and also a sizeable portion from SW Scotland which their project calls the "Sir William Gordon" branch (b abt 1294) and the "Jock and Tam" branch and the Sir William Gordon branch share a common Y-DNA ancestor. The geneaolgy claims the progenitor as Adam de Gordoun of Berwickshire (b. 1035 in Normandy, France - d. 1093 in Northumberland, England) http://www.thegordondnaproject.com/Results.html

    I had a look in the I-Z140 project and none of the Gordons are listed in the I-S12289 branches, although there are not many in the I-Z140 project and the I-A1944 group contains some folks who trace back to Scotland (Douglas, McDonald, Milne, etc.) as well as a couple of Burtz who traced back to an adoption on paper trail from Gordon to Burtz in 1789 - and it's nice that the Y-DNA matches up with that. There are a lot more Gordons in the Gordon surname project, but they are not grouped in that project page. Most of the S12289+ folks in the Gordon FTDNA project appear to be those who have noticed a lot of matches in their STR lists - I know for sure that individuals on the I-BY31749, I-A11316, I-A1972, I-A375 (all below I-S12289) all have S12289- Gordons on their STR match list at the Y67 level because several of them on those branches have mentioned it, although SNPs show that their common Y-DNA ancestor is at I-L338 branch, way before surnames were in use.

    But yes, if confirmation of I-L338 and possibly I-S12289 is where you're happy with being right now, then you're in a good place. I often recommend the Big Y/YElite/WGS ahead of the SNP packs because I've seen a lot of people purchase the latter and afterwards are disappointed that the results aren't comprehensive or specific enough and end up doing the Big Y or equivalent afterwards. Might be something that you're interested in the future - prices will come down and sales can give good deals.

    I haven't found FTDNA's FamilyFinder to be especially useful for my autosomal lines as FTDNA's autosomal matching database is small compared to some of the other companies. Only been able to verify four with a common ancestor genealogically, and three of those were transfers from Ancestry or 23andme. AncestryDNA has been the most bountiful in verifying genealogical connections to common ancestors - the really large database helps on that score, and the tie in with records means that a lot more people have trees than FTDNA. MyHeritage has probably been the next most useful and has probably been the fastest growing database. 23andme has been good for some who aren't in the other databases, and I can compare the chromosome browser data to those at FTDNA and MyHeritage via DNAPainter, which has been extremely useful. In that regard, Ancestry testers who have transferred to FTDNA are useful. Gedmatch I didn't find much use for genealogy as the majority of folks were in the others. LivingDNA hasn't resulted in much given that their Family Matching database is very, very small. As a native Brit, I've found I have way less matches total and also close matches than for example, Americans. A lot of those that I can establish a genealogical connection with are those descended from the child of a common ancestor that emigrated to US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Those ones are more represented in the database compared to fellow native Brits who are rather thin on the ground. The tests from most of these companies are less expensive than the Y and mtDNA tests, they go on sale a lot and with the slowdown in the testing market, will probably be more often on sale.

    I haven't personally found mtDNA useful for genealogy yet. I feel it's better for conclusively ruling out a common ancestor on that line than ruling one in as the slow mutation rate of mtDNA means that common ancestors of matches can be a very, very long time in the past. Some people have had good outcomes though, so it very much depends on individual cases.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  3. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Yes, there's a lot of Gordons in NE Scotland and most of the I1 fall into what their DNA project calls the "Jock and Tam" branch along with the R1b "Seton Gordons", and also a sizeable portion from SW Scotland which their project calls the "Sir William Gordon" branch (b abt 1294) and the "Jock and Tam" branch and the Sir William Gordon branch share a common Y-DNA ancestor. The geneaolgy claims the progenitor as Adam de Gordoun of Berwickshire (b. 1035 in Normandy, France - d. 1093 in Northumberland, England) http://www.thegordondnaproject.com/Results.html

    I had a look in the I-Z140 project and none of the Gordons are listed in the I-S12289 branches, although there are not many in the I-Z140 project and the I-A1944 group contains some folks who trace back to Scotland (Douglas, McDonald, Milne, etc.) as well as a couple of Burtz who traced back to an adoption on paper trail from Gordon to Burtz in 1789 - and it's nice that the Y-DNA matches up with that. There are a lot more Gordons in the Gordon surname project, but they are not grouped in that project page. Most of the S12289+ folks in the Gordon FTDNA project appear to be those who have noticed a lot of matches in their STR lists - I know for sure that individuals on the I-BY31749, I-A11316, I-A1972, I-A375 (all below I-S12289) all have S12289- Gordons on their STR match list at the Y67 level because several of them on those branches have mentioned it, although SNPs show that their common Y-DNA ancestor is at I-L338 branch, way before surnames were in use.
    I am surprised that there so many of them decended from an actual Norman. BTW my father's mother's maiden name was Moleneux. There wasn't enough of them in Scotland to set up a clan, but after moving from NW England in the 13th centuary, some of them move into SW Scotland a few went on to the NE Scotland. I was born in Aberdeen as so was my father and his parents. So I am now wondering if indeed I do have Norman ancestry from my father's side.


    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    But yes, if confirmation of I-L338 and possibly I-S12289 is where you're happy with being right now, then you're in a good place. I often recommend the Big Y/YElite/WGS ahead of the SNP packs because I've seen a lot of people purchase the latter and afterwards are disappointed that the results aren't comprehensive or specific enough and end up doing the Big Y or equivalent afterwards. Might be something that you're interested in the future - prices will come down and sales can give good deals.

    I haven't found FTDNA's FamilyFinder to be especially useful for my autosomal lines as FTDNA's autosomal matching database is small compared to some of the other companies. Only been able to verify four with a common ancestor genealogically, and three of those were transfers from Ancestry or 23andme. AncestryDNA has been the most bountiful in verifying genealogical connections to common ancestors - the really large database helps on that score, and the tie in with records means that a lot more people have trees than FTDNA. MyHeritage has probably been the next most useful and has probably been the fastest growing database. 23andme has been good for some who aren't in the other databases, and I can compare the chromosome browser data to those at FTDNA and MyHeritage via DNAPainter, which has been extremely useful. In that regard, Ancestry testers who have transferred to FTDNA are useful. Gedmatch I didn't find much use for genealogy as the majority of folks were in the others. LivingDNA hasn't resulted in much given that their Family Matching database is very, very small. As a native Brit, I've found I have way less matches total and also close matches than for example, Americans. A lot of those that I can establish a genealogical connection with are those descended from the child of a common ancestor that emigrated to US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Those ones are more represented in the database compared to fellow native Brits who are rather thin on the ground. The tests from most of these companies are less expensive than the Y and mtDNA tests, they go on sale a lot and with the slowdown in the testing market, will probably be more often on sale.

    I haven't personally found mtDNA useful for genealogy yet. I feel it's better for conclusively ruling out a common ancestor on that line than ruling one in as the slow mutation rate of mtDNA means that common ancestors of matches can be a very, very long time in the past. Some people have had good outcomes though, so it very much depends on individual cases.
    I will probably do the YSEQ for further investigation of my Y DNA. Whwn I firast did the Ancestry UK one they gave me a more diverse (from different parts of Europe) than the up-dated version, which had most of my DNA from the British Isle and a tiny bit from N.France and Belgium. This was much the same as MyHeritage which aslo had about 2% for Eastern Europe. FDNA had me for 38% western Europe and 10% eastern Europe - a completely diofferent result.

    In addition to investigating my miDNA I would like an autosomonial DNA investigation into the respective % of my tribal roots. i.e. how much Celtic, AS, Viking, etc.

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  5. #353
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    I'm not that surprised that there can be so many descended from a Norman, all it takes is one successful lineage to then explode with further branching lineages (we've seen that with R1b). Digging through various medieval records there were a fair amount of seemingly Anglo-Norman and Anglo-Saxon individuals (based on their names) in Scotland ranging from the Borders to the outskirts of the Highlands and elsewhere that could very well be the Y-line ancestors of many people today.

    Bill, could it not be possible that your I-S1954 is due to a Norman migrant? Or even a Flemish migrant? I know that it can be a quick jump to either Viking or Anglo-Saxon, but there is a chance of a Norman arrival.

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  7. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I'm not that surprised that there can be so many descended from a Norman, all it takes is one successful lineage to then explode with further branching lineages (we've seen that with R1b). Digging through various medieval records there were a fair amount of seemingly Anglo-Norman and Anglo-Saxon individuals (based on their names) in Scotland ranging from the Borders to the outskirts of the Highlands and elsewhere that could very well be the Y-line ancestors of many people today.

    Bill, could it not be possible that your I-S1954 is due to a Norman migrant? Or even a Flemish migrant? I know that it can be a quick jump to either Viking or Anglo-Saxon, but there is a chance of a Norman arrival.
    Whoever it was they must have at one point migrated into the central Highlands where my clan/suranme originated. IMO probably more chance of a Norman than a Flemming, as there are Highland clans with Noramn surnames.

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  9. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillMC View Post
    Whoever it was they must have at one point migrated into the central Highlands where my clan/suranme originated. IMO probably more chance of a Norman than a Flemming, as there are Highland clans with Noramn surnames.
    Or even their descendants became Gaelicised and they simply took on a patronymic in the Gaelic fashion? This happened with the Hiberno-Normans and there is an example of it in Scotland with the descendants of a man named Eadwulf in the Loch Lomond area, whose Gaelic patronymic was rendered as "Makedolf" or "Maggadelf", obviously this surname didn't survive though.

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  11. #356
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    Hello all. It's been a bit, but I wanted to let you know that I got another BigY tester and FTDNA has updated our terminal SNP to I-Z140>Z141>Z2535>YSC261>L338>A1944>A2398>FT114518>F T194840. I have also uploaded my CSV file to YFull, and now our Czech Republic friend is no longer alone at I-A2398.

    Also, commenting on the I-S12289- GORDONs (Jock and Tam branch), they are in my I-A1914+ cluster. If my surname research is correct, then my ancestors were most likely Norman prior to coming to Northern England & Scotland. That would probably put these GORDONs in the same "boat", so to speak.

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  13. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdbreazeale View Post
    I-A1944 Block Tree.GIF
    Hello all. It's been a bit, but I wanted to let you know that I got another BigY tester and FTDNA has updated our terminal SNP to I-Z140>Z141>Z2535>YSC261>L338>A1944>A2398>FT114518>F T194840. I have also uploaded my CSV file to YFull, and now our Czech Republic friend is no longer alone at I-A2398.

    Also, commenting on the I-S12289- GORDONs (Jock and Tam branch), they are in my I-A1914+ cluster. If my surname research is correct, then my ancestors were most likely Norman prior to coming to Northern England & Scotland. That would probably put these GORDONs in the same "boat", so to speak.

    Congratulations! That’s a nice block of SNPs you’ve got there!

    Also got my results and was able to get my (distant) cousins over to YFull. Only one of them made it in time for the updated TMRCA but it looks like the others aren’t going to change that substantially. At least, from what I can see.


    B6AE23F9-BA9A-4DCE-877E-C8F9EC7CCAAD.jpeg


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A13248/


    Unfortunately, both FT & YFull are missing a branch that was found previously, in between A13248 & FT80854/A13242 but I know about it, so that’s alright.
    Last edited by JMcB; 02-21-2020 at 06:52 PM.
    Paper Trail: 43.8% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  15. #358
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    Delete
    Paper Trail: 43.8% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

  16. #359
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    Greetings, all. It's been too long since I have visited. I am well but looking for assistance. Some time in the last year or so I saw a reference to a genetic genealogy related article in preprint stage. ( some place like biorvix.org ) I'm recalling I saw the reference here, but a search yields nothing. So perhaps I am mistaken. The article included results of some random Y DNA testing. Results were relevant in that some of those tested were identified as Z140. Significantly, one was identified as a haplotype much closer to my own. The individual lived in the Netherlands. Does this article ring a bell with anyone?
    Paternal side is from UK / Ireland,. Y haplo I1/m253:
    Z140 > Z141 > Z2535 > YSC261 > L338 > S12289 > BY461> BY463 > PH4462 > A18477.

    Livingdna:

    Great Britain and Ireland 59.9%

    Southeast England 22.2%
    Lincolnshire 8.7%
    Ireland 6.6%
    Devon 6%
    East Anglia 3.7%
    South England 3.7%
    Central England 1.8%
    Northumbria 1.7%
    Cornwall 1.3%
    Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 4%

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  18. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanovermont View Post
    Greetings, all. It's been too long since I have visited. I am well but looking for assistance. Some time in the last year or so I saw a reference to a genetic genealogy related article in preprint stage. ( some place like biorvix.org ) I'm recalling I saw the reference here, but a search yields nothing. So perhaps I am mistaken. The article included results of some random Y DNA testing. Results were relevant in that some of those tested were identified as Z140. Significantly, one was identified as a haplotype much closer to my own. The individual lived in the Netherlands. Does this article ring a bell with anyone?
    If I recall correctly you're in the I-PH4462 subclade? Perhaps you're referring to the Batini et al paper that was published in Nature Communications in 2015? There were two samples from Belgium in that paper that were positive for PH4462 - namely Fri-1309, Fri-1722.

    I did an analysis of the VCFs from the paper about a year ago to refine the subclades of the I1 samples in that paper here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post580802
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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