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Thread: Admixture / Ashkenazi / European

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    Admixture / Ashkenazi / European

    I'm hoping someone can help me understand my mother-in-law's admixture results. So far as she knows, all of her grandparents were Ashkenazi Jews from Ukraine or Russia.. but on FTDNA MyOrigins, she got 68% AJ + 26% European (15% Eastern, 11% Western and Central) + 5% ME (Asia minor). In contrast, mine, with Belarus/Poland great-grandparents, is 96% Ashkenazi.

    I'm posting some gedmatch data below. Any help with interpretation would be helpful. From reading this and other boards, it seems like one of her grandparents is not Ashkenazi.. if that's true, my question is: how far back could that represent? For example, is that grandparent not Ashkenazi, or could it be someone a few generations older? And is it safe to assume that, whoever it is, was not born Jewish? Is there any further details to be drawn from the results? Thanks so much.

    Jtest Oracle-4:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 EAST_MED 22.94
    2 ASHKENAZI 22.64
    3 WEST_MED 12.32
    4 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 11.26
    5 ATLANTIC 10.27
    6 SOUTH_BALTIC 6.88
    7 EAST_EURO 5.23
    8 MIDDLE_EASTERN 3.96
    9 WEST_ASIAN 3.28


    Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
    14 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 AJ @ 11.535821
    2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 20.176933
    3 Tuscan @ 20.343599
    4 GR @ 21.515181
    5 North_Italian @ 23.020493
    6 RO @ 23.245621
    7 Serbian @ 25.296837
    8 PT @ 27.621244
    9 AT @ 29.654112
    10 ES @ 29.856033
    11 HU @ 30.353930
    12 FR @ 31.225746
    13 TR @ 33.656609
    14 West_&_Central_German @ 35.448765
    15 NL @ 36.769566
    16 Moroccan @ 37.239182
    17 Cornish @ 37.812695
    18 Algerian @ 37.829872
    19 English @ 37.890408
    20 IQ @ 38.275139

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% AJ +50% Tuscan @ 8.669334


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% AJ +25% AJ +25% North_Italian @ 7.251274


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 AJ + AJ + AJ + North_Italian @ 7.251274
    2 AJ + AJ + AJ + Tuscan @ 7.387603
    3 AJ + AJ + AJ + Serbian @ 7.437661
    4 AJ + AJ + AJ + RO @ 7.533366
    5 AJ + AJ + AJ + FR @ 7.607125
    6 AJ + AJ + AJ + AT @ 7.619203
    7 AJ + AJ + AJ + PT @ 7.684240
    8 AJ + AJ + AJ + ES @ 7.845077
    9 AJ + AJ + RO + Tuscan @ 7.985049
    10 AJ + AJ + Serbian + Tuscan @ 8.225005
    11 AJ + AJ + AJ + West_&_Central_German @ 8.228189
    12 AJ + AJ + AJ + HU @ 8.275245
    13 AJ + AJ + AT + GR @ 8.291656
    14 AJ + AJ + AJ + NL @ 8.472672
    15 AJ + AJ + FR + GR @ 8.506612
    16 AJ + AJ + AT + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 8.545327
    17 AJ + AJ + GR + PT @ 8.650693
    18 AJ + AJ + AJ + Cornish @ 8.657864
    19 AJ + AJ + Tuscan + Tuscan @ 8.669334
    20 AJ + AJ + AJ + English @ 8.675517

    Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 30.72
    2 North_Atlantic 21.92
    3 West_Med 18.21
    4 Baltic 13.86
    5 West_Asian 9.65
    6 Red_Sea 2.73

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Greek_Thessaly @ 7.459021
    2 West_Sicilian @ 8.532696
    3 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.803391
    4 Ashkenazi @ 9.184096
    5 Central_Greek @ 9.546020
    6 East_Sicilian @ 9.723442
    7 Tuscan @ 10.748281
    8 South_Italian @ 12.148490
    9 Bulgarian @ 14.962009
    10 Italian_Jewish @ 15.979510
    11 Sephardic_Jewish @ 16.604115
    12 Romanian @ 16.876846
    13 Algerian_Jewish @ 16.940535
    14 North_Italian @ 16.988380
    15 Tunisian_Jewish @ 20.715845
    16 Serbian @ 21.036169
    17 Libyan_Jewish @ 21.261019
    18 Cyprian @ 25.301661
    19 Portuguese @ 25.907705
    20 Spanish_Extremadura @ 26.326702

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Italian_Jewish +50% Romanian @ 4.197400


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Ashkenazi +25% Austrian +25% Italian_Jewish @ 3.337747


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Austrian + Italian_Jewish @ 3.337747
    2 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + East_German + Italian_Jewish @ 3.436841
    3 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + West_German @ 3.541522
    4 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Hungarian + Italian_Jewish @ 3.605791
    5 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Serbian + Spanish_Valencia @ 3.647636
    6 Ashkenazi + East_German + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 3.742700
    7 Ashkenazi + Hungarian + Italian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 3.754380
    8 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Southwest_Finnish @ 3.789355
    9 Greek_Thessaly + Hungarian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 3.817457
    10 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + South_Dutch @ 3.857889
    11 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Romanian + Spanish_Valencia @ 3.858068
    12 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Romanian + Tuscan @ 3.870466
    13 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + West_German @ 3.886557
    14 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Austrian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.928387
    15 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Austrian @ 3.930443
    16 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Tuscan @ 3.934095
    17 Croatian + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Valencia @ 3.942727
    18 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + French @ 3.948771
    19 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Austrian @ 3.957549
    20 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + East_German + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.966923

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  3. #2
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    Most likely your assumption is right. Seems like she got non-ashkenazi admixture.

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  5. #3
    Regardless of individuals all Ashkenazim has European/foreign admixture, in Her case it seems higher than average still within the spectrum of Ashkenazi jews.

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    I would not assume one of her grandparent's was not Ashkenazim. It could be much further back in time, on several of her lineages.
    Stats say AJ are roughly 50% European & 50% Near Eastern (+/- 10% < too lazy to look it up).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roaring View Post
    Most likely your assumption is right. Seems like she got non-ashkenazi admixture.
    This might be a crazy theory, but I have encountered a number of made up ancestries since I have been doing genetic genealogy. Back in the 19th Century, if you appeared to be Jewish, even though you were not, you might fare better to pass as being a member of the Jewish community. On the contrary, if you appeared not to be Jewish but you were, you might be tempted to move into the non-Jewish community.

    Things did not always happen according to set rules, as we frequently assume.

    Jack Wyatt

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  10. #6
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    Mostly Ashkenazi, though she obviously has recent non-Jewish ancestry, these K13 fits are quite telling:

    3 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + West_German @ 3.541522
    6 Ashkenazi + East_German + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 3.742700
    10 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + South_Dutch @ 3.857889
    18 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + French @ 3.948771
    19 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Austrian @ 3.957549
    20 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + East_German + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.966923

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonacci View Post
    Regardless of individuals all Ashkenazim has European/foreign admixture, in Her case it seems higher than average still within the spectrum of Ashkenazi jews.
    She's not within the bounds of Ashkenazi diversity, in fact she barely fits within the Western Jewish cluster judging from her results.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 10-21-2016 at 11:51 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Thanks, everyone, and to FredBats who PM'd me separately (I don't have enough posts to reply with thanks).

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  14. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    She's not within the bounds of Ashkenazi diversity, in fact she barely fits within the Western Jewish cluster judging from her results.
    That's certainly wrong. Some Ashkenazi approach even the Romanian/Balkan cluster, she's just on the more European spectrum.

    Not even a single Sephardic approach the Levantine cluster, let alone Ashkenazim who are heavily European influenced.

    Edit: The mainstream European Jewish diversity can be anywhere in between Tuscans/North Central Italians and Cypriot Greeks. Some due to higher Baltic admixture (Russian Jews, Lithuanian Jews) can cluster with Romanians, and some (particularly Dutch Jewish i saw) towards West Europe. Ashkenazim of Bulgarian, South Balkan descent often mixed with Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews and pull towards East.

    Last edited by Bonacci; 10-22-2016 at 11:48 AM.

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  16. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonacci View Post
    That's certainly wrong. Some Ashkenazi approach even the Romanian/Balkan cluster, she's just on the more European spectrum.

    Not even a single Sephardic approach the Levantine cluster, let alone Ashkenazim who are heavily European influenced.

    Edit: The mainstream European Jewish diversity can be anywhere in between Tuscans/North Central Italians and Cypriot Greeks. Some due to higher Baltic admixture (Russian Jews, Lithuanian Jews) can cluster with Romanians, and some (particularly Dutch Jewish i saw) towards West Europe. Ashkenazim of Bulgarian, South Balkan descent often mixed with Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews and pull towards East.

    Judging from your post, I'd say you have a rather poor understanding of the Western Jewish cluster's nature, but this isn't the first time I've seen you make strange claims of the sort (already saw you exaggerate the amount of Western European or "Baltic" ancestry in Ashkenazim). First off, there's no way a fully-Ashkenazi person will plot with Tuscans, mainland Greeks, North Italians, Romanians or Western Europeans, only recent northern or northeastern European ancestry can produce such results and this is because the Western Jewish cluster is part of a larger Eastern Mediterranean continuum running from Southern Italy to Cyprus. To quote Davidski, analysing Ashkenazi Jews is a bit like analysing a bunch of Italian 3rd cousins, Ashkenazim are a very close-knit and, dare I say, inbred population with low diversity on average (no matter how you look at it, from a uniparental and medical standpoint as well).

    I myself am a textbook example of this, since I plot right next to North Italians, Tuscans, Bulgarians and Romanians in a genetic no man's land like most half-Jewish people, this is what I get on K13 for example:

     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 33.82
    2 East_Med 18.32
    3 West_Med 16.89
    4 Baltic 16.08
    5 West_Asian 8.39
    6 Red_Sea 3.46
    7 South_Asian 2.53
    8 Northeast_African 0.32
    9 East_Asian 0.15
    10 Oceanian 0.04

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 North_Italian 9.36
    2 French 11.08
    3 Romanian 11.61
    4 Tuscan 11.62
    5 Portuguese 11.82
    6 Serbian 12.06
    7 Spanish_Galicia 12.83
    8 Spanish_Cataluna 12.95
    9 Spanish_Extremadura 13.01
    10 Bulgarian 13.39
    11 West_German 13.47
    12 Spanish_Murcia 13.5
    13 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 13.68
    14 Spanish_Valencia 14.16
    15 South_Dutch 14.68
    16 Greek_Thessaly 14.88
    17 Spanish_Andalucia 15.03
    18 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 15.49
    19 Austrian 15.59
    20 Italian_Abruzzo 15.95

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 56.4% West_Sicilian + 43.6% Danish @ 1.78
    2 50.5% Southwest_English + 49.5% Ashkenazi @ 1.89
    3 66.7% West_German + 33.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.05
    4 55.8% Danish + 44.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.12
    5 50.1% Southeast_English + 49.9% East_Sicilian @ 2.13
    6 54.5% West_Sicilian + 45.5% North_German @ 2.13
    7 66.9% West_German + 33.1% Italian_Jewish @ 2.18
    8 64.7% South_Dutch + 35.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.19
    9 64.9% South_Dutch + 35.1% Italian_Jewish @ 2.2
    10 56.7% West_Sicilian + 43.3% North_Dutch @ 2.25
    11 59.1% West_Sicilian + 40.9% Norwegian @ 2.29
    12 51.5% Ashkenazi + 48.5% West_Scottish @ 2.29
    13 67.7% West_German + 32.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.31
    14 60.4% South_Dutch + 39.6% Ashkenazi @ 2.31
    15 51.2% Ashkenazi + 48.8% Irish @ 2.34
    16 50.2% Danish + 49.8% South_Italian @ 2.38
    17 55.5% North_Dutch + 44.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.38
    18 52.4% Southeast_English + 47.6% Ashkenazi @ 2.43
    19 68% South_Dutch + 32% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.45
    20 65.7% South_Dutch + 34.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.46


    ^^Notice the high GDs in the single population mode, dietcokelemon's mother-in-law gets GDs which are only marginally lower, then compare these high GDs to the significantly lower ones in the mixed modes, in both cases this is a strong sign of recent admixture.

    Finally, the PCA from Behar et al you posted includes half-Jewish and 3/4 Jewish people in the Ashkenazi cluster, this is why it goes all the way to Tuscany and Romania, here's a better version of this PCA from the sup data where this can be clearly seen:



    ^^Dietcokelemon's mother-in-law would plot with the AJs in front of the Tuscan cluster (basically next to mainland Greeks) here while I'd plot closer to the AJs next to the Romanian cluster (next to North Italians), compare this to the rest of the Ashkenazi cluster which is more substantially tight-knit and consistent.

    So no, she's definitely not within the bounds of Ashkenazi diversity, for the exact same reason I'm not within the bounds of Ashkenazi diversity myself for that matter.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 10-22-2016 at 08:05 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  18. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Judging from your post, I'd say you have a rather poor understanding of the Western Jewish cluster's nature, but this isn't the first time I've seen you make strange claims of the sort (already saw you exaggerate the amount of Western European or "Baltic" ancestry in Ashkenazim). First off, there's no way a fully-Ashkenazi person will plot with Tuscans, mainland Greeks, North Italians, Romanians or Western Europeans, only recent northern or northeastern European ancestry can produce such results and this is because the Western Jewish cluster is part of a larger Eastern Mediterranean continuum running from Southern Italy to Cyprus. To quote Davidski, analysing Ashkenazi Jews is a bit like analysing a bunch of Italian 3rd cousins, Ashkenazim are a very close-knit and, dare I say, inbred population with low diversity on average (no matter how you look at it, from a uniparental and medical standpoint as well).

    I myself am a textbook example of this, since I plot right next to North Italians, Tuscans, Bulgarians and Romanians in a genetic no man's land like most half-Jewish people, this is what I get on K13 for example:

     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 33.82
    2 East_Med 18.32
    3 West_Med 16.89
    4 Baltic 16.08
    5 West_Asian 8.39
    6 Red_Sea 3.46
    7 South_Asian 2.53
    8 Northeast_African 0.32
    9 East_Asian 0.15
    10 Oceanian 0.04

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 North_Italian 9.36
    2 French 11.08
    3 Romanian 11.61
    4 Tuscan 11.62
    5 Portuguese 11.82
    6 Serbian 12.06
    7 Spanish_Galicia 12.83
    8 Spanish_Cataluna 12.95
    9 Spanish_Extremadura 13.01
    10 Bulgarian 13.39
    11 West_German 13.47
    12 Spanish_Murcia 13.5
    13 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 13.68
    14 Spanish_Valencia 14.16
    15 South_Dutch 14.68
    16 Greek_Thessaly 14.88
    17 Spanish_Andalucia 15.03
    18 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 15.49
    19 Austrian 15.59
    20 Italian_Abruzzo 15.95

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 56.4% West_Sicilian + 43.6% Danish @ 1.78
    2 50.5% Southwest_English + 49.5% Ashkenazi @ 1.89
    3 66.7% West_German + 33.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.05
    4 55.8% Danish + 44.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.12
    5 50.1% Southeast_English + 49.9% East_Sicilian @ 2.13
    6 54.5% West_Sicilian + 45.5% North_German @ 2.13
    7 66.9% West_German + 33.1% Italian_Jewish @ 2.18
    8 64.7% South_Dutch + 35.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.19
    9 64.9% South_Dutch + 35.1% Italian_Jewish @ 2.2
    10 56.7% West_Sicilian + 43.3% North_Dutch @ 2.25
    11 59.1% West_Sicilian + 40.9% Norwegian @ 2.29
    12 51.5% Ashkenazi + 48.5% West_Scottish @ 2.29
    13 67.7% West_German + 32.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.31
    14 60.4% South_Dutch + 39.6% Ashkenazi @ 2.31
    15 51.2% Ashkenazi + 48.8% Irish @ 2.34
    16 50.2% Danish + 49.8% South_Italian @ 2.38
    17 55.5% North_Dutch + 44.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.38
    18 52.4% Southeast_English + 47.6% Ashkenazi @ 2.43
    19 68% South_Dutch + 32% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.45
    20 65.7% South_Dutch + 34.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.46


    ^^Notice the high GDs in the single population mode, dietcokelemon's mother-in-law gets GDs which are only marginally lower, then compare these high GDs to the significantly lower ones in the mixed modes, in both cases this is a strong sign of recent admixture.

    Finally, the PCA from Behar et al you posted includes half-Jewish and 3/4 Jewish people in the Ashkenazi cluster, this is why it goes all the way to Tuscany and Romania, here's a better version of this PCA from the sup data where this can be clearly seen:



    ^^Dietcokelemon's mother-in-law would plot with the AJs in front of the Tuscan cluster (basically next to mainland Greeks) here while I'd plot closer to the AJs next to the Romanian cluster (next to North Italians), compare this to the rest of the Ashkenazi cluster which is more substantially tight-knit and consistent.

    So no, she's definitely not within the bounds of Ashkenazi diversity, for the exact same reason I'm not within the bounds of Ashkenazi diversity myself for that matter.
    What's your Jtest look like?

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