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Thread: L23 and M73 in non-Slavic populations in the steppe from Urals eastward

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    L23 and M73 in non-Slavic populations in the steppe from Urals eastward

    A move into this difficult econological zone in itself must tell a story (if indeed it was a move INTO this zone). Clearly these clades were absorbed by later Turkic groups. The ancestoral line leading to M73 split from that leading to M269 c. 10000 years ago acording to Klyosov. On the other hand he dates the actual formation of the M73 clade in this zone to at least c. 6000BC. He dates this 2000 years before the take off of L23. So either M73 itself moved INTO this environmentally mariginal zone c. 6000BC or P297 was already there.

    Until recently I would find moving INTO the steppes at this time very unlikely but this paper outlines some options for the more westernly parts of the steppes.


    http://www.dlib.si/stream/URN:NBN:SI...8491aa4.../PDF

    That all said, the eastern steppes are even more challenging so its really hard to see how anyone other than steppe adapted people could move into that area. Also, the rise of an eastern steppe (well it is today anyway) lineage c. 6000BC in what I assume is a very arid zone at the time of the 6.2 kiloyear event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.2_kiloyear_event
    which caused serious aridity in what must be a very arid area anyway is odd. Or perhaps it was a survivor lineage of this event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    A move into this difficult econological zone in itself must tell a story (if indeed it was a move INTO this zone). Clearly these clades were absorbed by later Turkic groups. The ancestoral line leading to M73 split from that leading to M269 c. 10000 years ago acording to Klyosov. On the other hand he dates the actual formation of the M73 clade in this zone to at least c. 6000BC. He dates this 2000 years before the take off of L23. So either M73 itself moved INTO this environmentally mariginal zone c. 6000BC or P297 was already there. ....
    I just want to make sure I understand where you are going with this. Are you saying that L23xL51 and M73 in Central/North Central Asia appears in non-Slavic populations? Are there particularly interested is specific ethnicities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I just want to make sure I understand where you are going with this. Are you saying that L23xL51 and M73 in Central/North Central Asia appears in non-Slavic populations? Are there particularly interested is specific ethnicities?
    That certainly seems to be the pattern. Mainly absorbed into Turkic groups. My main point is that M73 seems to be a clade associated with that part of the the world and is dated to around 6000BC. It is the oldest of the three uber-clades of R1b but is also the closest to M269 in terms of branching. So the question is how did M73 get this distribution? Anatole sees M73 as ancient in Central Asia and seems to suggest it originated there. The alternative is that M73 entered Central Asia and the steppes from elsewhere. So which one is it? This also is of some significance to the M269 story in that M73 is one the brother line compared to V88 which occurred on the cousin line. So, in theory M73 gives us our first idea of the P297 story and is therefore much more useful to shedding oblique light on the backstory of M269 than V88. It just seens to me that for a largerly M269-focussed hobbiest group, we spend more time commenting on V88 than we do on M73 which is a step more closely related to the M269 line. I should probably start a thread in the never-used M73 section. The very fact that section has never been used again seems weird to me. I would like to know a whole lot more about M73. After all both M73 and M269 derive from one guy 'Mr P297' living back in 8000BC. So given that M269 did not exist at that time and that P297* is rare, M73 seems a useful proxy for what the P297 line was doing 8000 years ago.

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    I have started a thread of M73 in the correct section.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    A move into this difficult econological zone in itself must tell a story (if indeed it was a move INTO this zone). Clearly these clades were absorbed by later Turkic groups. The ancestoral line leading to M73 split from that leading to M269 c. 10000 years ago acording to Klyosov. On the other hand he dates the actual formation of the M73 clade in this zone to at least c. 6000BC. He dates this 2000 years before the take off of L23. So either M73 itself moved INTO this environmentally mariginal zone c. 6000BC or P297 was already there.

    Until recently I would find moving INTO the steppes at this time very unlikely but this paper outlines some options for the more westernly parts of the steppes.


    http://www.dlib.si/stream/URN:NBN:SI...8491aa4.../PDF

    That all said, the eastern steppes are even more challenging so its really hard to see how anyone other than steppe adapted people could move into that area. Also, the rise of an eastern steppe (well it is today anyway) lineage c. 6000BC in what I assume is a very arid zone at the time of the 6.2 kiloyear event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.2_kiloyear_event
    which caused serious aridity in what must be a very arid area anyway is odd. Or perhaps it was a survivor lineage of this event.
    Can you update the link

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