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Thread: Colonial people and their results?

  1. #11
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    We have to be careful that for many claims of US Native American ancestry we've reached the 6 generations or so distant mark when autosomal DNA either fails to get passed on or is so small as to be indistinguishable from noise. So some "debunked" claims may actually be real but just be too distant.

    However there are certainly many family stories of the "Indian princess" that can't be real; I have two in my own surname project that have repeatedly been unsupported by testing and like others the people in question have chosen to believe their family legacy over the DNA results.

    If you expand the question outside the US however where there was more mixing with indigenous populations the situation is very different. My daughter adopted from Guatemala has lines including her mtDNA that are very likely Mayan in origin which is not really surprising given the history in Central America.

    Dave

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  3. #12
    My family claimed Cherokee ancestry in the 1890s with several documents & court cases.

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    I have white in-laws, a niece, and a great-nephew (her son) with a Native American mitochondrial line. They would be "colonial" admixture from the SE United States on the atDNA side; I'm not sure if they actually have tested that way, but I could ask my ex-sister-in-law. She at least got mtDNA results somewhere -- I think from Ancestry, but several years ago, when they offered more testing options.

    On my own paternal line we have documented NA affinal relatives (who aren't testing); but our YDNA is from England, and the atDNA is too admixed after seven to ten generations for the native wives of relatively poor whites (in VA/NC) to make a recognizable signal. Also, the target populations (Nottoway, Saponi, Meherrin) are not really represented in any DNA database of which I'm aware. I also have NA ancestry, according to family tradition, via the wife of a mid-18th century immigrant from Ireland to CT. The oldest family photo in that line appears visually to support that; but extant church records in the Hartford, CT area don't. My ancestry painting, etc. looks like the blue lagoon, pretty boring.

    Anyway, I agree (with earlier posts) with the premise that autosomal signals get too weak at that distance in generations, for people testing in the 21st century to find eastern seaboard NA ancestry from the 17th, or soon thereafter. Descendants of late 19th century immigrants from Europe who got land in the west, and married NA folks out there whose DNA was not yet so diluted, would presumably have a very different painting -- with much less admixture after three generations or so.

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    Well said to Dave-V & razyn. Based on the ancestor claimed by my family's records to be Cherokee, that would make me roughly 1/64 Native American, or 1.56%. It makes sense that the major testing companies wouldn't pick that up (excepting DNA Tribes 1.3%), and why it appears on my Gedmatch calculators on Chromosome 9.

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    There was a story my great grandma told my mother and one of my great aunts had told me, that way back in the colonial period we had an 'Indian' ancestor named 'Seaworth' that had married a courier du bois and explorer, Martin Chartier. They had several children before 1700. One daughter named Mary married a "D(a)ubart" in the early 18th century. My great great grandmother was a "Daubert" or "Deibert," there are multiple creative spellings.

    Someone born, say around 1660 would, for me, work out to be a tenth or eleventh degree ancestor, like 1/1024th part. My 23andMe result came back 99.9% European -- the only surprise was the 6% Scandinavian at the speculative end. It also gave me >.1% "undifferentiated East Asian." I thought that was just noise but then I keep seeing this thread and I remembered that story. Could this test bang up on a possible ancestor that far back or should I chalk it all up to a fanciful story at best, bullshit at worst?
    Avatar: Great great grandfather Thomas Adamson, Ohio 38th Infantry.

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bix View Post
    There was a story my great grandma told my mother and one of my great aunts had told me, that way back in the colonial period we had an 'Indian' ancestor named 'Seaworth' that had married a courier du bois and explorer, Martin Chartier. They had several children before 1700. One daughter named Mary married a "D(a)ubart" in the early 18th century. My great great grandmother was a "Daubert" or "Deibert," there are multiple creative spellings.

    Someone born, say around 1660 would, for me, work out to be a tenth or eleventh degree ancestor, like 1/1024th part. My 23andMe result came back 99.9% European -- the only surprise was the 6% Scandinavian at the speculative end. It also gave me >.1% "undifferentiated East Asian." I thought that was just noise but then I keep seeing this thread and I remembered that story. Could this test bang up on a possible ancestor that far back or should I chalk it all up to a fanciful story at best, bullshit at worst?
    I wouldn't throw out the story yet, but what you have does not count as proof. I'd keep it under consideration. Just try to build out the more recent generations in your tree, and maybe a match that you find could shed further light on the story. On the other hand, this advice is coming from a natural skeptic. I have found a number of made up genealogies.

    Jack Wyatt

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    Quote Originally Posted by C J Wyatt III View Post
    I wouldn't throw out the story yet, but what you have does not count as proof. I'd keep it under consideration. Just try to build out the more recent generations in your tree, and maybe a match that you find could shed further light on the story. On the other hand, this advice is coming from a natural skeptic. I have found a number of made up genealogies.

    Jack Wyatt
    There were always skeptics who'd heard the story in my family. Another one of my great aunts said that her mother would never lie, but with a story that old, odds are that it had to be embellished along the way, and that you could do a lot of good in life if you spent the time and money chasing that story and putting it into worthwhile things. In other words, 'leave it.'

    That's how I've always took it, maybe true, maybe false, or maybe somewhere in between. It might be an explanation for that East Asian /NA blip in my gene test, or maybe that >.1% is 'basal Eurasian' that people harp about.

    It seems the farther back these tails stretch, the more fantastic they get. One associate of mine found out that one of her ancestors from that time was a captain on some ship that went back and forth between Philadelphia and England, and that he had been convicted and executed for eating his cabin boy. Now that's some interesting genealogy. Imagine digging that up.
    Avatar: Great great grandfather Thomas Adamson, Ohio 38th Infantry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBW1986 View Post
    It makes sense that the major testing companies wouldn't pick that up (excepting DNA Tribes 1.3%), and why it appears on my Gedmatch calculators on Chromosome 9.
    DNA Tribes has been discredited on other forums, a number of them, of giving biased inaccurate results on other populations and over exceeding the "exotic" factors - aboriginal, ashkenazi, etc.

    All it is is a sales gimmick. After all, if your friend Dickie Joe has Indian than why shouldn't you? Just the "exoticism" factor which makes people buy the product thinking they can "prove" that they aren't just boring 100% white people.


    But for gedmatch

    Amerindian
    k13 - 1.32
    K36 - 1.89
    That is just one "aboriginal" stat from a close friend of mine. Now his ancestors' closest, if only, interaction with an "Amerindian" would have been via photograph. He is, after all, a Polish Russian whose ancestors have been in Europe for a long while.

    But he wouldn't be the only European with "Amerindian" on gedmatch. There's a lovely website done up by a Dutch lady whose father has "Amerindian" DNA via gedmatch. As she summarizes and which may account for a number of false positive "Amerindian" DNA claims is her father's ancestry is remotely isolated which means old genes can be carried far longer than not so remotely located groups. Those old genes just by happenchance resemble "Amerindian" to gedmatch.


    I am not entirely rebuking any possibility but when my cousin, himself part Iroquois Indian and not some diluted mix [I do, after all, find it rather amusing when people whiter than me show off a status card] but his father is one of the few remaining with considerable Indian DNA, showed less than a quarter percentage "Amerindian" it makes one question just what is been used as reference population and how accurate such is.

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    I watched this video a long time ago, but in it, he claims all sorts of stuff like hes the descendant of the Prophet Muhammad and other mythical stories. He based his proof on DNA Tribes, which, as you said, is known to give some exotic results for people. Its only in the first part of the video. The rest is him just doing weird stuff. Hes an odd fellow to say the least.
    ~ 90% Irish (Ireland-Northern Ireland-Argyll) with minor German, Italian, French, Amerindian
    Still searching for my father's parents....

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    Quote Originally Posted by bix View Post
    Could this test bang up on a possible ancestor that far back or should I chalk it all up to a fanciful story at best, bullshit at worst?
    Coureurs de bois who have left any descendants at all presumably had them with NA mates; who the heck else was there, with whom to make babies? I don't think there is much doubt about Chartier, himself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Chartier

    There may be more people claiming descent from him than actually have it, but the ones who are correct about the descent are also correct about NA admixture. But again, that was too many generations back for the NA segments to be very long, and short ones are suspect -- they might be "Identical By State," which is a nice way of saying coincidental (and genetic hogwash).

    A few years ago Roberta Estes took a lot of flak after blogging about the facile assumption that one's short-segment matches are IBS, ergo not real. Her basic argument, with which I agree, is that real ones from that long ago are just as short as false ones; and somebody's pretty much have to be real. So, part of the test of reality is triangulation. The next argument is about how much proof is proof. And so on. It has to bog down somewhere, but not necessarily at an arbitrary "four or five generations" cutoff, based on statistical modeling. That would just suggest the most likely scenario. 1% of one's known ancestry might be much more, or much less, than 1% of one's observable Ancestry Informative Markers.

    I'm supposed to be 3% Neanderthal, but that doesn't mean I had one ancestor, six generations back, who was 100% Neanderthal. It is diluted, but still strong, and pretty much means that most of my ancestry has been European for 20,000 years or so. The Native American admixture problem for "white" people is the same problem, just in a more compressed time frame.

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