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Thread: R1a-L657 Y6+

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    R1a-L657 Y6+

    So it transpires an error was made with my yseq R1a panel results from January which categorised me as Y40*.

    I received notification a month ago that, according to Thomas, they had the wrong definition for the Y40 position (one base to the right) and I am now Y40 negative.

    Subsequently, my results have come back as L657+ Y6+ (Y7- Y9-). No further downstream markers to Y6 have been checked.

    I had a look at the yfull tree, appears to be a wide spread through the subcontinent in terms of distribution.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

    Any further information available on the different L657 subclades?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    So it transpires an error was made with my yseq R1a panel results from January which categorised me as Y40*.

    I received notification a month ago that, according to Thomas, they had the wrong definition for the Y40 position (one base to the right) and I am now Y40 negative.

    Subsequently, my results have come back as L657+ Y6+ (Y7- Y9-). No further downstream markers to Y6 have been checked.

    I had a look at the yfull tree, appears to be a wide spread through the subcontinent in terms of distribution.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

    Any further information available on the different L657 subclades?
    Thanks for the update.
    I heard from another person who had the same happen.
    And from another who had Y40+ confirmed.
    Both YSeq tested and from South Asia.

    So looks like YSeq revisited their Y40 tests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    So it transpires an error was made with my yseq R1a panel results from January which categorised me as Y40*.

    I received notification a month ago that, according to Thomas, they had the wrong definition for the Y40 position (one base to the right) and I am now Y40 negative.

    Subsequently, my results have come back as L657+ Y6+ (Y7- Y9-). No further downstream markers to Y6 have been checked.

    I had a look at the yfull tree, appears to be a wide spread through the subcontinent in terms of distribution.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

    Any further information available on the different L657 subclades?
    I am also Y6+ (my paternal line is Afghan Pashtun). Y6 is common in all of India like Y9 but Y9 seems to be more frequent. Some Y6 is also found in Iran, Afghanistan,Baluchistan, Iraq, Arabia,...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    I am also Y6+ (my paternal line is Afghan Pashtun). Y6 is common in all of India like Y9 but Y9 seems to be more frequent. Some Y6 is also found in Iran, Afghanistan,Baluchistan, Iraq, Arabia,...
    Interesting! Did you get any further downstream markers checked?

    The TMRCA of 3700 years fits around the presumed entry date of the indo aryans into the subcontinent . . . Do you think the Iranian / Middle Eastern ones represent back migration?

    Parasar, I was wondering what had prompted them to check 6 months down the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Interesting! Did you get any further downstream markers checked?

    The TMRCA of 3700 years fits around the presumed entry date of the indo aryans into the subcontinent . . . Do you think the Iranian / Middle Eastern ones represent back migration?

    Parasar, I was wondering what had prompted them to check 6 months down the line.
    Not yet but i am interested in testing more markers. Yes Y6+ was probably born somewhere around South Central Asia(BMAC). Parasar knows more about this but as far as i know Y6 and Y7 seem to be Proto-Indo-Aryan markers carried by the first Proto-Indo-Aryans which migrated into South and West Asia. But as long as we have no ancient dna from Central and South Asia we can not exclude that Proto-Indo-Aryans carried also a bit Z2124 or that Proto-Iranics had also some L657. The first wave of Indo-Iranians from the Eurasian steppe were Proto-Indo-Aryans which migrated during the Bronze Age not just to India but also to Afghanistan, Iran, Syria,... . Interestingly the first documented historical appereance of Indo-Aryans was in Syria (Mitanni) where an small Indo-Aryan elite influenced or even ruled the local Hurrian-speaking population so that some theonyms, proper names and other mainly military terms exhibited close similarities to Indo-Aryan. In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni, the deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya were invoked. Later Iranians assimilated or pushed back most Indo-Aryans which lived outside of India or the Indo-Aryans became assimilated by the local population like in Syria where the Indo-Aryans quickly adopted the local non-Indo-European languages. In Afghanistan Indo-Aryans survived longer and still exist in significant numbers in the eastern part of the country. But L657 is found everyhere in the country among all ethnic groups.


    I think most of L657 in Iran is "local" and probably from Proto-Indo-Aryans. Some areas in Iran have almost as much as L657 as Z2124. Especially in Baluchistan L657 seems to be higher than Z2124. In Afghanistan most L657 is probably from Proto-Indo-Aryans which later became assimilated by Iranics but some could be from Indian back migrations during the Kushan age or later. L657 in West Asia has many sources in my opinion some could be from Proto-Indo-Aryan adventures which moved far west and were absorbed by the locals but much of it looks like it arrived recently in the post-islamic period with Persian, Baluch, Afghan or Indian immigrants .
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 11-03-2016 at 08:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Not yet but i am interested in testing more markers. Yes Y6+ was probably born somewhere around South Central Asia(BMAC). Parasar knows more about this but as far as i know Y6 and Y7 seem to be Proto-Indo-Aryan markers carried by the first Proto-Indo-Aryans which migrated into South and West Asia. But as long as we have no ancient dna from Central and South Asia we can not exclude that Proto-Indo-Aryans carried also a bit Z2124 or that Proto-Iranics had also some L657. The first wave of Indo-Iranians from the Eurasian steppe were Proto-Indo-Aryans which migrated during the Bronze Age not just to India but also to Afghanistan, Iran, Syria,... . Interestingly the first documented historical appereance of Indo-Aryans was in Syria (Mitanni) where an small Indo-Aryan elite influenced or even ruled the local Hurrian-speaking population so that some theonyms, proper names and other mainly military terms exhibited close similarities to Indo-Aryan. In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni, the deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya were invoked. Later Iranians assimilated or pushed back most Indo-Aryans which lived outside of India or the Indo-Aryans became assimilated by the local population like in Syria where the Indo-Aryans quickly adopted the local non-Indo-European languages. In Afghanistan Indo-Aryans survived longer and still exist in significant numbers in the eastern part of the country. But L657 is found everyhere in the country among all ethnic groups.


    I think most of L657 in Iran is "local" and probably from Proto-Indo-Aryans. Some areas in Iran have almost as much as L657 as Z2124. Especially in Baluchistan L657 seems to be higher than Z2124. In Afghanistan most L657 is probably from Proto-Indo-Aryans which later became assimilated by Iranics but some could be from Indian back migrations during the Kushan age or later. L657 in West Asia has many sources in my opinion some could be from Proto-Indo-Aryan adventures which moved far west and were absorbed by the locals but much of it looks like it arrived recently in the post-islamic period with Persian, Baluch, Afghan or Indian immigrants .
    Thank you for the comprehensive reply. Regarding the Mitanni, is the Indo-Aryan superstrate considered to have arrived directly off the steppe? Prior to the arrival of Indo-Iranians/early Iranians onto the Iranian plateau?

    Is it surprising that there isn't more regional differentiation in the L657 or Z2124 subclades?

    I still haven't quite understood how, should L657 actually be an Indo-Aryan marker, it is present in non caste, tribal S Indians. Did it spread prior to the formalisation of a caste based system?

    It'll be interesting when the Rakhigarhi DNA results are finally released. Alot of questions - now just need the answers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Thank you for the comprehensive reply. Regarding the Mitanni, is the Indo-Aryan superstrate considered to have arrived directly off the steppe? Prior to the arrival of Indo-Iranians/early Iranians onto the Iranian plateau?

    Is it surprising that there isn't more regional differentiation in the L657 or Z2124 subclades?

    I still haven't quite understood how, should L657 actually be an Indo-Aryan marker, it is present in non caste, tribal S Indians. Did it spread prior to the formalisation of a caste based system?

    It'll be interesting when the Rakhigarhi DNA results are finally released. Alot of questions - now just need the answers!
    As far as i know the Indo-Aryan elite of the Mitanni were descendants of an Indo-Aryan group, which instead of going eastward to India came via Iran to the Fertile Crescent .The Indo-Aryan superstrate was derived from an Indo-Aryan language which was more archaic and more conservative than Vedic Sanskrit.
    "Rather, is obvious that the remnants of early Indo-Aryan in Mitanni belong to a pre-Rgvedic stage of Indo-Aryan, as is seen in the preservation of Indo-Iranian -zdh- > Vedic -edh-, in priyamazdha (bi-ir-ia-ma-as'-da) : Vedic priyamedha : Avest. -mazda. These texts also still have Indo-Iranian ai > Vedic e (aika : eka in aikavartana). Another early item is the retention of Indo-Iranian z'h > Vedic h in vas'ana(s')s'aya = [vaz'hanasya] cf. Ved. vāhana- . Importantly, Mitanni-Indo-Aryan has no trace of retroflexion"
    Most Iranics arrived after Indo-Aryans in South and West Asia. Indeed, some of the rather indirect IA influx into the Near East may have been earlier than the one visible in Mitanni.
    The Kassite conquerors of Mesopotamia (c. 1677-1152 BCE) have a sun god Šuriiaš , 164 perhaps also the Marut and maybe even Bhaga ( Bugaš ?), as well as the personal name Abirat(t)aš ( Abhiratha ); but otherwise, the vocabulary of their largely unknown language hardly shows any IA influence, not even in their many designations for the horse and horse names
    The region was still mainly Pre-Indo-European when Iranics arrived there despite the early presence of Indo-Aryans . Aryanization was a slow process and the i think the major admixing event happened before the caste system was fully established in his current strict form. Proto-Indo-Aryans had surely some kind of social hierachy but the caste system in India evolved later from both aryan and local traditions. Also despite all the social stigma inter caste mixing happened to some extent. The first Indo-Aryans which arrived in South Asia were likely not "glorious" conquerors but traders, mercenaries, adventurers, maybe even slaves. As long as Indo-Aryans were a tiny minority they quickly mixed with the locals and were assimilated but after some time they got more and more numerous and powerful so that they could have the power to subjugate the locals. Rigveda does not show a clear-cut division between the various tribes/populations of non-local(Aryan) and of local nature, but it clearly distinguishes between arya and dasyu. It is unclear, who exactly were the dasyu, many equate them with the Pre-Aryan locals, but i am sceptical about this. Actually many of the tribal designations and names of important persons in Rigveda seem to be of non-Aryan local origin.

    L657 and Z2124 are poorly studied and we have not so many samples from South Asia or Central/West Asia. There is more regional differentation in the Z2124 subclades (some special clades can be linked with Jews, Tatars/Turks, Pashtuns,..) but they are also much better studied than L657 clades.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 11-14-2016 at 11:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    As far as i know the Indo-Aryan elite of the Mitanni were descendants of an Indo-Aryan group, which instead of going eastward to India came via Iran to the Fertile Crescent .The Indo-Aryan superstrate was derived from an Indo-Aryan language which was more archaic and more conservative than Vedic Sanskrit.

    Most Iranics arrived after Indo-Aryans in South and West Asia. Indeed, some of the rather indirect IA influx into the Near East may have been earlier than the one visible in Mitanni.

    The region was still mainly Pre-Indo-European when Iranics arrived there despite the early presence of Indo-Aryans . Aryanization was a slow process and the i think the major admixing event happened before the caste system was fully established in his current strict form. Proto-Indo-Aryans had surely some kind of social hierachy but the caste system in India evolved later from both aryan and local traditions. Also despite all the social stigma inter caste mixing happened to some extent. The first Indo-Aryans which arrived in South Asia were likely not "glorious" conquerors but traders, mercenaries, adventurers, maybe even slaves. As long as Indo-Aryans were a tiny minority they quickly mixed with the locals and were assimilated but after some time they got more and more numerous and powerful so that they could have the power to subjugate the locals. Rigveda does not show a clear-cut division between the various tribes/populations of non-local(Aryan) and of local nature, but it clearly distinguishes between arya and dasyu. It is unclear, who exactly were the dasyu, many equate them with the Pre-Aryan locals, but i am sceptical about this. Actually many of the tribal designations and names of important persons in Rigveda seem to be of non-Aryan local origin.

    L657 and Z2124 are poorly studied and we have not so many samples from South Asia or Central/West Asia. There is more regional differentation in the Z2124 subclades (some special clades can be linked with Jews, Tatars/Turks, Pashtuns,..) but they are also much better studied than L657 clades.
    When do it think the earliest Vedas were being formed ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    When do it think the earliest Vedas were being formed ?
    I am not an expert about this but as far as i know around 1500 B.C maybe even later

    According to recent archaeological research the disappearance of the Indus cities is determined at 1900 B.C.; on the other hand, the AV is the first text mentioning iron which
    was introduced in North India at c. 1100 BCE. The RV, which no longer knows of the Indus cities but only mentions ruins , thus could have been composed
    during the long period between 1990 and 1100 BCE. An ad quem date for the RV is provided by the mentioning of Vedic gods (Varua, Mitra, Indra, Nåsatya = Aśvin) in the Hittite-
    Mitanni agreement of c. 1380 BCE. The RV, however, presents, for the greatest part, only a "snapshot" picture of c. 5-6 generations of poets and kings who lived closer towards the end of
    the period (cf. Witzel, forthc. a)

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    I think Rig Veda was compiled 1700-1500 BC but a lot of poems in it are probably older as the world they paint is very much the border regions between the Steppe and Central Asia.
    The rest of Vedas seem to be composed in the early Iron Age.

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