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Thread: R1a-L657 Y6+

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    I got my results. I am Y198829-.
    My results came through just now. On my paternal side - I am Y198829 T+!

    Thanks for the recommendation.

    So I guess I sit on the same subclade as poi for now.


    Paternal; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6> Y11> Y920*
    Paternal; mtDNA: M5b'c
    Maternal; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6
    Maternal; mtDNA: M4b1
    Maternal Grandmother; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6
    Maternal Grandfather; mtDNA: M3a1
    Maternal Grandfather MGF; Y-DNA: Q-M346

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    My guess is the southern Indian L657 is high in Y6 - perhaps as much as 90% - based on the Chaubey data.
    In fact M780xM634 looks higher than Y7.
    So far South Indian Kamma, all are L657 are Y6 only. Others are all R1a*.
    Y: H1a1a4b3b1a8 Yfull id-> YF83218
    Medals->Hidden Content
    mtDNA:U2a1a2
    G25 Ancients Dist 1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 88.4 MAR_Taforalt 2.6NPL_Mebrak 5
    VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA 4 Hidden Content

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    My results came through just now. On my paternal side - I am Y198829 T+!

    Thanks for the recommendation.

    So I guess I sit on the same subclade as poi for now.


    They increased the TMRCA date to 2900 ybp what would more or less fall into the period of Late Vedic Indo-Aryan expansion eastwards. But it is possible that they are still underestimasting and the clade itself formed around 4000 ybp what basically would mean it formed in Andronovo or even an earlier culture. So it will be very interesting to see which clades under R1a-BY160158 will be found in the future.

    My basal Y920* clade on the otherside is for now closest to Gujarati, Bengali and Uyghurs but with a TMRCA of 4000 ybp so not really helpful in determining deeper connections
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 07-12-2020 at 08:52 PM.

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  7. #44
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    Y6 vs Y7 samples in the Hallast et al. paper. https://link.springer.com/article/10...39-020-02204-9

    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Mala India R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Makrani Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Makrani Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Kurmi India R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Balochi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Balochi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Balochi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Pathan Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Odisha India R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6


    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7
    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7
    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7
    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7
    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Kazakhs Kazakhstan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Gupta India R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    West-Bengali India R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Iraqi-Jews Iraq R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Pathan Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Uygur China R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Relli India R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

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  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Y6 vs Y7 samples in the Hallast et al. paper. https://link.springer.com/article/10...39-020-02204-9

    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Brahui Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Mala India R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Makrani Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Makrani Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Kurmi India R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Balochi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Balochi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6
    Balochi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Pathan Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6

    Odisha India R1a1a1b2a1a1a Y6


    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7
    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7
    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7
    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7
    Sindhi Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Kazakhs Kazakhstan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Gupta India R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    West-Bengali India R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Iraqi-Jews Iraq R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Pathan Pakistan R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Uygur China R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7

    Relli India R1a1a1b2a1a2c Y7
    Thanks for sharing actually all of Brahui R1a is Y6+ what is quitr interesting. So they are around 25% Y6 what is kind a lot. If i am not wrong Brahui are centered around Kalat so not far away from where Proto-Pashtuns would form (North Baluchistan/Arachosia). Would be interesting to see if my Pashtun R1a-Y6 is closer to them or to Y6 further north (my Y6>Y920* was found among Uyghurs) or further east in South Asia.

    30-40% of Balochi and Makrani R1a is Y6+ so probably still the biggest R1a clade and the rest is probably YP413 and some Z2123 (they not looked deeper at other Z93 clades it seems)

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  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Thanks for sharing actually all of Brahui R1a is Y6+ what is quitr interesting. So they are around 25% Y6 what is kind a lot. If i am not wrong Brahui are centered around Kalat so not far away from where Proto-Pashtuns would form (North Baluchistan/Arachosia). Would be interesting to see if my Pashtun R1a-Y6 is closer to them or to Y6 further north (my Y6>Y920* was found among Uyghurs) or further east in South Asia.

    30-40% of Balochi and Makrani R1a is Y6+ so probably still the biggest R1a clade and the rest is probably YP413 and some Z2123 (they not looked deeper at other Z93 clades it seems)
    And among the Sindhi, and I suspect the same for Punjabis, Y7 dominates.

    From what I undestand the Brahui were much more widespread at one time in Baluchistan - but over the past hundred plus years the Brahui shrunk and Baloch gained currency.
    https://ia801606.us.archive.org/23/i...The-Brahui.pdf
    Ref: "Baluchistan Census Report of 1901."
    "Numerically they are the strongest tribe in Baluchistan, numbering roughly 300,000 souls, or more than thrice the strength of the Baluch actually resident in the country to which he has given his name ...

    the true Brahuis who came from Aleppo are only represented by the Ahmadzai (the ruling family of Kalat), the Iltazai, Mirwari, Gm’gnari, Sumalari and Kalandrari...

    He has little of the Pathan’s pride of race and language. On the contrary, though he may naturally be chary of putting the admission into words, he usually accepts as a matter of course the claims of both Pathan and Baluch to be his superior in race, and certainly displays a distinct alacrity to trace a non-Brahui descent whenever he can do so with decency ...

    This lack of proper racial pride is probably intimately related to the diffidence of the Brahui as to his language. There is a very general feeling among his neighbours that Brahui is a strange language, a jargon too uncouth for gentility and the feeling is shared in some measure by the Brahuis themselves, who do not hesitate to employ Baluchi or Pashtu on the slightest excuse."


    "There are also numbers of partly settled Brahuis living along the Helmand river in Afghanistan, from Čahār Borjak eastward through Šōrāwak to Nushki, as well as seminomadic Brahuis in Persia, now almost entirely in Sīstān but with a few settled farther south near Ḵāš. G. P. Tate mentions the presence there of about 2,000 Brahuis, but their number has now much diminished, principally through assimilation with neighboring Baluch."

    "Ethnically the Brahuis have tended to become even more closely identified with the Baluch, a process that has been continuing since at least the 16th century and probably for much longer (see below)."

    All census returns since 1911 (analyzed by Sir Denys Bray in 1914; the 1931 returns were also discussed by him; see below) have been characterized by confusion between those designated Brahui tribesmen and those claiming Brahui as their mother tongue, which has led to constant overestimates of the latter and underestimates of the former in later Pakistani census returns (up to 1961, the last year in which census data on mother tongue were provided; see Emeneau, 1962). It has been customary among Brahuis for many centuries to describe themselves as Baluch, especially to out*siders, regardless of the language they habitually use.

    The first certain appearance of the Brahuis in history is in 17th-century Mughal notices on the Khanate of Kalat. Their previous history is still entirely a matter of speculation, in the absence of even a trace of genuine Brahui traditions. The few early Brahui traditions known are merely echoes of Baluch traditional history, and none is preserved in the Brahui language in the form of ballads or anything else. There is no evidence for any early association of the Brahuis and the Baluch before their encounter in the highlands of Kalat in the 13th century or perhaps a bit earlier (but see below). Brahui traditions said to be preserved in Baluch historical ballads earlier than the 19th century nowhere mention the name Brahui or that of any known Brahui tribe. Speculation about Brahui history must therefore be based on linguistic evidence alone, namely the fact that Brahui is a Dravidian language.

    The most common theory is that the Brahuis took part in the original Dravidian invasions of India from the northwest in the 3rd millennium b.c. but split off from the main body and remained in Sarawan and Jahlawan, where they have lived since before 2000 b.c. without contact with their Dravidian relations; yet the notion that they preserved their identity for millennia only to be suddenly overwhelmed by the Baluch invaders less than 800 years ago suffers from a certain intrinsic incredibility and calls for reexamination. Physically the Brahuis are quite indistinguishable from their Jaṭ and Baluch neighbors; they present the same varieties of types.

    In the light of more recent evidence a hypothesis first suggested by Jules Bloch in 1924 seems more acceptable: The Brahuis are more likely to be relatively recent immigrants to their present homeland in Pakistan from the western Deccan.

    After further migration northwestward, the Brahuis perforce came into contact with Jaṭs, who had been present in Sind since the 5th century; from the Jaṭs they would have taken their present name Brāhūī/Brāhōī."

    Its most likely etymology is from Brāhō, a Siraiki (Jaṭki) form of Ebrāhīm, which underscores the Muslim character of the Brahuis vis--vis their Hindu Jaṭ neighbors. Brāhōī is simply an adjective formed from Brāhō (probably by the Baluch), “the Brāhō people,” a political name for a loose collection of tribally organized Muslim nomads with no center living among the Jaṭs in west central Sind and speaking mainly a form of northwest Dravidian (see further below)."

    "Probably the Brahuis had reached the highlands of Kalat by the 6th/12th century or a bit earlier, spreading north and south from there (and much later into Afghanistan and Persia), having assimilated many other nomadic tribal groups on their way and having shed others."

    "Brahui has been profoundly influenced by the languages of the neighbors among whom the tribesmen have been living, at the oldest level by Indo-Aryan (Sindhi-Siraiki “Jaṭki”)."
    https://iranicaonline.org/articles/brahui
    Last edited by parasar; 07-21-2020 at 12:09 AM.

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  13. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    And among the Sindhi, and I suspect the same for Punjabis, Y7 dominates.

    From what I undestand the Brahui were much more widespread at one time in Baluchistan - but over the past hundred plus years the Brahui shrunk and Baloch gained currency.


    In the light of more recent evidence a hypothesis first suggested by Jules Bloch in 1924 seems more acceptable: The Brahuis are more likely to be relatively recent immigrants to their present homeland in Pakistan from the western Deccan.
    If you look at Y-dna distribution difference between Baluchi & Brahui is that Balouch has E1b not in brahui whereas Brahui has more J2a, J1 & G1, C5 not in balochi. Thats probably a lot of difference in the Y heritage.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...6748.s007.xlsx
    Y: H1a1a4b3b1a8 Yfull id-> YF83218
    Medals->Hidden Content
    mtDNA:U2a1a2
    G25 Ancients Dist 1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 88.4 MAR_Taforalt 2.6NPL_Mebrak 5
    VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA 4 Hidden Content

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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  15. #48
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    Thanks to aaronbee2010 we have now several new deeper Y6+ results, which hopefully will be soon all on Yfull.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....DP-Haplogroups

    HGDP Sample Ethnicity mtDna Haplogroup Yfull

    HGDP00076 Balochi J2a2 R1a-Y6 > Y920* https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y920/
    HGDP00096 Balochi M3a2 R1a-Y6 > Y920* https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y920/
    HGDP00092 Balochi M3a2 R1a-Y6 > Y920>Y928>Y1>Z29137> Y924* https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y924/

    HGDP00033 Brahui H4 R1a-Y6 > Y920>Y928>FT201009 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT201009/
    HGDP00001 Brahui M3c2 R1a-Y6 > Y920>Y928>FT201009 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT201009/
    HGDP00011 Brahui M5a2a4 R1a-Y6 > Y920>Y928>FT201009 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT201009/
    HGDP00031 Brahui T1a1m1 R1a-Y6 > Y920>Y928>FT201009https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT201009/
    HGDP00035 Brahui U7a2 R1a-Y6 > Y920>Y928>FT201009 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT201009/
    HGDP00027 Brahui H1ca R1a-Y6 > Y920>Y928>Y1>Z29137> Y924> Y34260 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y34260/


    HGDP00135 Makrani M5a2a4 R1a-Y6 > Y920>Y928>FT201009 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT201009/
    HGDP00150 Makrani HV5b R1a-Y6 > Y920* https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y920/

    HGDP00243 Pathan W3a1 R1a-Y6 > M624* https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M624/

    HGDP00199 Sindhi K2a5b R1a-Y6 > Y920* https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y920/

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  17. #49
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    Yfull added a Sarikoli (WGC059852D) sample under Y28* and a Kashmiri (SAMC013032) sample under Y4* (both a bit upstream of Y6)
    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Y28/

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  19. #50
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    The four HGDP Y920* samples were added on Yfull. It seems Y920 is quite a huge branch with many old subbranches diverging around 2000 B.C if not earlier. I am negative so far for all detected subbranches.

    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Y920/

    HGDP00076 (Balochi): R1a-Y920 > Y148366 > BY181409 > FT281004
    HGDP00096 (Balochi): R1a-Y920 > SK2051 > FT281076
    HGDP00150 (Makrani): R1a-Y920 > Y148366 > BY181409 > FT281004
    HGDP00199 (Sindhi): R1a-Y920 > SK2051 > FT281076

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