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Thread: Z255 & L159.2 (L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2) & Irish Sea/Leinster/Laighin

  1. #81
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    I was re-reading this thread from the beginning tonight and decided to dig a little.

    It was brought to my attention in the summer that there was a person of the Kavanagh surname that was confirmed Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1. There are also 2 Murphys in the same grouping. With Murchad being the grandfather of Diarmiad Mac Murchada, this is in line with John Grenham's views on the origin of the Murphy surname in Wexford.

    Tracking the ZZ7_1 man back to their surname project group, I found only one other Kavanagh in the same group that is confirmed Z255. I put the other 11 in the same group with Kavanagh variant surnames through Jim Cullen's haplogroup predictor using 37 markers. One came back very marginal in terms of being Z255 but the other 10 had over 95% probability of being Z255.

    As we have known for a while the O'Byrnes are downstream of Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1 and are according to the Irish Annals linked on the male line to the Kavanaghs sometime around 400 AD. If more Kavanaghs SNP tested (perhaps even some with a verified pedigree) it may be possible to identify the last shared SNP that they shared with the O'Byrnes, which would confirm the annals at least in this instance.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CillKenny View Post
    I was re-reading this thread from the beginning tonight and decided to dig a little.

    It was brought to my attention in the summer that there was a person of the Kavanagh surname that was confirmed Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1. There are also 2 Murphys in the same grouping. With Murchad being the grandfather of Diarmiad Mac Murchada, this is in line with John Grenham's views on the origin of the Murphy surname in Wexford.

    Tracking the ZZ7_1 man back to their surname project group, I found only one other Kavanagh in the same group that is confirmed Z255. I put the other 11 in the same group with Kavanagh variant surnames through Jim Cullen's haplogroup predictor using 37 markers. One came back very marginal in terms of being Z255 but the other 10 had over 95% probability of being Z255.

    As we have known for a while the O'Byrnes are downstream of Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1 and are according to the Irish Annals linked on the male line to the Kavanaghs sometime around 400 AD. If more Kavanaghs SNP tested (perhaps even some with a verified pedigree) it may be possible to identify the last shared SNP that they shared with the O'Byrnes, which would confirm the annals at least in this instance.
    Thanks, extremely interesting! I haven't heard much about Z255 in quite some time. I remember there were some descendants of Scottish border Beattys who were Z255 also.
    Last edited by fridurich; 12-28-2016 at 12:23 AM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by fridurich View Post
    Thanks, extremely interesting! I haven't heard much about Z255 in quite some time. I remember there were some descendants of Scottish border Beattys who were Z255 also.
    On the other end of the Z255 group Maurice Gleeson has done a lot of research in linking the surname to the annals. He gave a talk on this at Genetic Genealogy Ireland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCHOJVOY1lc).

    The problem with Z255 is that it seems to emerge from nowhere in about 400AD [yfull's 95% CI is 66AD to 766AD]. Before that there are over a dozen unique SNPs without any other branches that have yet been discovered.

    I think it is not doubted that in the annals the Ui Dunlaigne and Ui Cheinnselaig branches adhered themselves to the existing Leinster genealogies with the additional verses to the last will of Cathair Mar. But then the term Laigin is probably a collective description of a group of peoples.

    The link to the Beattys is interesting in that it may relate to a group that were present in both Ireland and Scotland and might provide some tentative indication of a link between the Fir Domhann/Laigin and the Damnonii. I would leave it to the experts though to move beyond speculation on this one but suspect a long thin line like Z255 is not where you would look to show anything more definitive.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by CillKenny View Post
    As we have known for a while the O'Byrnes are downstream of Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1 and are according to the Irish Annals linked on the male line to the Kavanaghs sometime around 400 AD. If more Kavanaghs SNP tested (perhaps even some with a verified pedigree) it may be possible to identify the last shared SNP that they shared with the O'Byrnes, which would confirm the annals at least in this instance.
    To clarify, you must be speaking of just one particular lineage of O'Byrnes, right? O'Byrnes and Burns are VERY common names through Ireland, and appear in every major haplogroups that's found in Ireland. The haplogroup distribution of the Burns/O'Byrne name is comparable to the haplogroup distribution of the Irish as a whole. So I'm not sure it makes sense to consider a match in one lineage as support for the accuracy of the Annals. One of the many O'Byrne lineages is bound to match the Kavanaghs as a matter of simple chance. For example, there are also O'Byrnes who share my Z253>L1066 Curley lineage of the Roscommon area.
    Last edited by miiser; 12-29-2016 at 05:37 PM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by miiser View Post
    To clarify, you must be speaking of just one particular lineage of O'Byrnes, right?
    Yes it is a particular lineage which is centred around South Wicklow and surrounding counties, which is the ancestral home of the O'Byrnes as we know them from Irish history. Many of those tested have links to the different branches of the O'Byrnes of Wicklow. I think upward of 95% of people with the Byrne surname in that area are Z255. Almost all who have tested further are Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1+ Z16950 before splitting up into smaller groupings. The Kavanagh ydna surname project has mostly grouped Z255 men together are the largest single block. Again the geography seems to be Wexford/Wicklow.

    Paul Burns gave two talks at GGI 2014. One about the wider groups within their ydna project [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_YjCM-sK38] and one focused on the Leinster branch [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBUU7Z1GVMc].

  6. #86
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    RE:
    On the other end of the Z255 group Maurice Gleeson has done a lot of research in linking the surname to the annals. He gave a talk on this at Genetic Genealogy Ireland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCHOJVOY1lc).
    That is my end of the Z255 Group. I have learned a lot from Maurice Gleeson. He also has a Blog that is well worth reading, especially for those of us who are Z16437+:

    http://gleesondna.blogspot.co.uk/201...f-project.html

  7. #87
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    I was re-reading this thread from the beginning tonight and decided to dig a little.

    It was brought to my attention in the summer that there was a person of the Kavanagh surname that was confirmed Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1. There are also 2 Murphys in the same grouping. With Murchad being the grandfather of Diarmiad Mac Murchada, this is in line with John Grenham's views on the origin of the Murphy surname in Wexford.

    Tracking the ZZ7_1 man back to their surname project group, I found only one other Kavanagh in the same group that is confirmed Z255. I put the other 11 in the same group with Kavanagh variant surnames through Jim Cullen's haplogroup predictor using 37 markers. One came back very marginal in terms of being Z255 but the other 10 had over 95% probability of being Z255.

    As we have known for a while the O'Byrnes are downstream of Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1 and are according to the Irish Annals linked on the male line to the Kavanaghs sometime around 400 AD. If more Kavanaghs SNP tested (perhaps even some with a verified pedigree) it may be possible to identify the last shared SNP that they shared with the O'Byrnes, which would confirm the annals at least in this instance.
    I saw ZZ7_1 mentioned and got so excited. I'm the absolute oddball in that group. I'm pretty sure I'm a completely different branch of ZZ7_1 as I'm in Wales with ancestry pretty deep in Carmarthenshire. Essentially there was no Irish settlement in Wales post 500 AD. The only stray settlements by outsiders/strangers probably occurred around 820 (From Isle of Mann) and 900. The 900 settlement was on Ynys Mon and as far as I know was completely destroyed (It contained Norse Gaels). So I'd assume the last connection between my ancestors and any other ZZ7_1 was around 700-800 A.D.

    Earlier Laighin settlement occurred around 400 A.D but was supposedly completely driven out. Plus I think that maybe to early for ZZ7_1's... manifestation? Hope that helps with any time frames.
    Last edited by MoonBeam; 01-02-2017 at 02:36 AM.

  8. #88
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    My Living DNA results are just in - I posted these on the results thread but just in case those interested in Z255 Living DNA gives this as breakdown of where R L21 is found. Not sure what the %s relate to though

    Wales 46%
    Ireland 38%
    Scotland 26%
    England 17%
    France 9%
    Netherlands 6%
    Spain 3%
    Germany 2%
    Switzerland 2%
    Norway
    Last edited by CillKenny; 02-10-2017 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Clarification

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to CillKenny For This Useful Post:

     fridurich (02-10-2017)

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