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Thread: Z255 & L159.2 (L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2) & Irish Sea/Leinster/Laighin

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    Z255 & L159.2 (L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2) & Irish Sea/Leinster/Laighin

    L159.2 is very strongly correlated to the Irish Sea Modal Haplotype, but Z255 is one step older than L159.2. I have a maternal g-grandfather Rhea who is L159.2 and their story is they are from Argyle, Scotland.

    However, I know there are several fairly large family groups, including the Kavanaughs and Beatty/Byrne's, who can trace back to Leinster. Many of these people have the unusual advanced STR marker results of DYS464X=2c2g where as the normal/modal values for L21 are 3 c's and 1 g or 3c1g.

    Kavanaugh is an Irish Gaelic surname that was first assumed by Domhnall, eldest son of the 12th century King of Leinster, Diarmait Mac Murchada (Dermot MacMurrough) in Ireland.

    In August 2009, results for one of the R1b-L21 Walk-on-the-Y (WTY) participants revealed a new SNP present in some L21+ men: L159.2. This SNP is a parallel mutation that exists also within Haplogroup I2a. Moreover, in 2011, a new SNP - Z255 - was discovered and was ascertained to be upstream of L159.2. The Z255 and Subclades Project thus serves as a repository of data for both of the main lineages that inherit the distinctive Irish Sea Haplotype, which is mainly found around the Irish Sea coasts of Great Britain and the province of Leinster. In addition, Z255 has been detected in a number of samples from Norway.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L159.2/
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/DYS464x%20ccgg
    Last edited by Mikewww; 05-15-2013 at 01:23 PM.

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    On a linguistic note "Laighin" sort of rhymes with english word Lion -- word internal -gh- has become silent. In "Old Irish" lentition wasn't marked so was written as Laigin, moder spelling is Laighin.

    To put into context here is a general map of Ireland circa 900AD:



    The modern province of Leinster is considerably larger then the historic kingdom, this is worth bearing in mind.


    Kavanagh actually started out as a Cognomen, sort of same way that Caesar is a Cognomen for section of Juli family. In this case it marked the mainline of the family, and signified that Domhnall (Donál = reformed spelling) was a devotee of local St. Caomhan.

    Wiki says the following:
    Domhnall was fostered for his training and education at the monastery of St. Caomhan at Kilcavan in the Barony of Gorey, County Wexford.[4] In an effort to distinguish himself from his other brothers, Domhnall assumed the name Caomhánach (an adjective of the name Caomhan, meaning "of Caomhan").[5] Contrary to usual Irish practice, the name was adopted by his descendants as an inherited surname.[6]
    They retained the Kingship up to at least 1632, the last to be titled "King of Leinster" been:
    Domhnall Spainneach Mac Murchadha Caomhánach (died 1632)

    Spainneach is a nickname here, been the word for "spanish" eg. (Spanish Donál). This is due to fact that he went to Spain in 1568 and spent a number of years there before returning to Ireland in the 1570's.

    Mac Murchadha is obviously the surname, and specifically the Caomhánach branch which is the main line with direct ancestroy to Domhnall Caomhanach (son of Diarmuid)

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    Any recent news on L159.2? Are there any potential equivalents for it found in Geno 2.0 testing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    On a linguistic note "Laighin" sort of rhymes with english word Lion -- word internal -gh- has become silent. In "Old Irish" lentition wasn't marked so was written as Laigin, moder spelling is Laighin.
    ...
    Kavanagh actually started out as a Cognomen, sort of same way that Caesar is a Cognomen for section of Juli family. In this case it marked the mainline of the family, and signified that Domhnall (Donál = reformed spelling) was a devotee of local St. Caomhan.

    Wiki says the following:


    They retained the Kingship up to at least 1632, the last to be titled "King of Leinster" been:
    Domhnall Spainneach Mac Murchadha Caomhánach (died 1632)

    Spainneach is a nickname here, been the word for "spanish" eg. (Spanish Donál). This is due to fact that he went to Spain in 1568 and spent a number of years there before returning to Ireland in the 1570's.

    Mac Murchadha is obviously the surname, and specifically the Caomhánach branch which is the main line with direct ancestroy to Domhnall Caomhanach (son of Diarmuid)
    Paul, two other very common surnames in this subclade are Beatty and Byrnes. How do they relate to the Kavanaugh's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Paul, two other very common surnames in this subclade are Beatty and Byrnes. How do they relate to the Kavanaugh's?
    Hi Mike,

    Well I'm not sure of the Beatty origin in this cluster, I would need to read up on it. But basically Beatty isn't a native Irish surname as you guess, I could be wrong but I don't know if the Beatty's (Peter Beatty??) have any ancestry in Ireland on their direct line. This is one of reasons we often see the term "Irish Sea cluster" used for this.

    Byrne on the other hand is one of major surnames of Leinster. Though their shared "ancestry" with the Kavanaghs is on order of 1200-1500 years ago.

    So in the Kingdom of Leinster (Laighin) there were two major dynastical groupings these been:
    • Uí Dhúnlainghe (Uí Dúnlainge -- old Irish spelling)
    • Uí Cheinnselaigh(Uí Ceinnselaig --old Irish spelling)


    The Uí Dhúnlainghe were the descendants of Dúnlaing mac Énda Niada (Dúnlaing son of "Énda Niada"). The dominated the Kingship of Leinster from the mid 8th century to the mid 11th century and were divided into three kindreds who would rotate the kingship between them (similiar to what Uí Néill did). These been the:
    1. Uí Mhuiredaigh (Uí Muiredaig) -- the principle family in later times were the Ó Tuathail eg. O'Toole
    2. Uí Fhaolain (Uí Faelain) -- the principle family in later times been the Ó Broin eg. O'Byrnes/Byrnes
    3. Uí Dhúnchada (Uí Dúnchada) -- the principle family in later times been the FitzDermots (extinct?) who were "normanised" in name/title


    Here's what Woulfe's has for O'Toole's and O'Brynes

    Ó BROIN—I—O Birne, O'Byrne, Byrne, Byrnes, (Burns, Byron), &c.; 'descendant of Bran' (raven). This family derives its name and descent from Bran, son of Maolmórdha, King of Leinster, whose death at Cologne is recorded by the Four Masters under the year 1052. The original patrimony of the family was Ui Faolain, which comprised the northern half of the present Co. Kildare; but they were driven thence by the Anglo-Normans soon after the invasion, and forced to take refuge in the mountain fastnesses of Wicklow, where they became very powerful and were long the terror of the invaders of their ancestral homes. At the head of the Wicklow clans, they maintained for a period of three hundred years incessant warfare with the foreigners, whom they defeated in many a fierce engagement. Their country, which was called Crioch-Bhranach, comprised the entire of the barony of Newcastle and portions of those of Arklow and Ballinacor. This last belonged to the Gaval-Rannall, or Ranelagh, a junior branch of the family, which in time became very powerful and of which the celebrated Fiach MacHugh O'Byrne was chief in the reign of Elizabeth. The name is now very common in Leinster, and has spread into many other parts of Ireland.

    ---
    Ó TUATHAIL—I—O Toughill, O Touhill, O Twohill, O Tuale, O Towell, O'Toole, Toughill, Tuohill, Twohill, Toohill, Tohall, Tohill, Towell, Toole, Toal, Toale, &c.; 'descendant of Tuathal' (people-mighty); also written Ó Tuathghail and Ó Tuathghaile; the name of at least two distinct families in Ireland, viz.: (1) Ó Tuathail of Leinster, and (2) Ó Tuathail of Ulster. The O'Tooles of Leinster, who are one of the most illustrious families of that province, derive their name and descent from Tuathal, son of Ughaire, King of Leinster, who died in the year 956. Their clan-name was Ui Muireadhaigh. This afterwards became the designation of their territory, which originally comprised the southern half of the present Co. Kildare. Driven thence soon after the Anglo-Norman invasion by Walter de Riddlesford, they settled in the mountain fastnesses of Wicklow, first in Ui Mail and afterwards in Feara Cualann, where in alliance with their kinsmen, the O'Byrnes, they carried on incessant warfare with the English for a period of four hundred years, and preserved their independence as a clan down to the close of the reign of Elizabeth. In the reign of James I, the whole of 'Fercuolen' was confiscated and granted to Sir Richard Wingfield. The O'Tooles, however, retained considerable property down to the Cromwellian and Williamite confiscations. A branch of the family settled at an early period in West Connacht, and are still numerous in Mayo and Galway. The Ulster family of the name is, according to MacFirbis, a branch of the Cinel Eoghain.

    The Uí Cheinnselaigh in comparison were concentrated in South Leinster and were descended from Énnae Cennsalach who is suppose to be a cousin of Dúnlaing mac Énda Niada (this is back in the 5th century AD). This is the dynasty of the Mac Murchadha (McMurrogh, Murphy, Kavanagh, Kinsella etc.) who dominated the kingship of Leinster post the 11th century.

    Now genealogies were often fabricated for political reasons so it's hard to know if the two major dynastical groupings did indeed share a common ancestor sometime in 4th/5th century, what's interesting obviously is we see Z255(L159.2) in both which points to at least common ancestry in the form of wider ruling elites of province of Leinster (Laighin)

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Hi Mike,

    Well I'm not sure of the Beatty origin in this cluster, I would need to read up on it. But basically Beatty isn't a native Irish surname as you guess, I could be wrong but I don't know if the Beatty's (Peter Beatty??) have any ancestry in Ireland on their direct line. This is one of reasons we often see the term "Irish Sea cluster" used for this.

    Byrne on the other hand is one of major surnames of Leinster. Though their shared "ancestry" with the Kavanaghs is on order of 1200-1500 years ago.

    So in the Kingdom of Leinster (Laighin) there were two major dynastical groupings these been:
    • Uí Dhúnlainghe (Uí Dúnlainge -- old Irish spelling)
    • Uí Cheinnselaigh(Uí Ceinnselaig --old Irish spelling)


    The Uí Dhúnlainghe were the descendants of Dúnlaing mac Énda Niada (Dúnlaing son of "Énda Niada"). The dominated the Kingship of Leinster from the mid 8th century to the mid 11th century and were divided into three kindreds who would rotate the kingship between them (similiar to what Uí Néill did). These been the:
    1. Uí Mhuiredaigh (Uí Muiredaig) -- the principle family in later times were the Ó Tuathail eg. O'Toole
    2. Uí Fhaolain (Uí Faelain) -- the principle family in later times been the Ó Broin eg. O'Byrnes/Byrnes
    3. Uí Dhúnchada (Uí Dúnchada) -- the principle family in later times been the FitzDermots (extinct?) who were "normanised" in name/title


    Here's what Woulfe's has for O'Toole's and O'Brynes




    The Uí Cheinnselaigh in comparison were concentrated in South Leinster and were descended from Énnae Cennsalach who is suppose to be a cousin of Dúnlaing mac Énda Niada (this is back in the 5th century AD). This is the dynasty of the Mac Murchadha (McMurrogh, Murphy, Kavanagh, Kinsella etc.) who dominated the kingship of Leinster post the 11th century.

    Now genealogies were often fabricated for political reasons so it's hard to know if the two major dynastical groupings did indeed share a common ancestor sometime in 4th/5th century, what's interesting obviously is we see Z255(L159.2) in both which points to at least common ancestry in the form of wider ruling elites of province of Leinster (Laighin)

    -Paul
    (DF41+)
    I have no doubt the MacMurrough dynasty is most likely Z255+. Pretty much everything Paul wrote above makes sense. The Irish Sea designation came from the initial observance of L159.2 popping up throughout various islands in the Irish Sea, North West England, Leinster, and Western Scotland.

    I am inclined to believe that L159.2 (Z255) is older in Scotland/Britain than in Ireland. There are a number of interesting haplotypes coming from Western Scotland and the Inner Hebrides. There is also the possibility that Z255 has a larger presence (although not as much as, say, Z253) in France, and it can be found in Rhineland. Norway also has a number of Z255+ men (the most out of Continental European results); we picked up another fellow with ancestry from Vesteralen a few weeks ago.
    Last edited by Kopfjäger; 06-15-2013 at 01:07 AM.

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    Last time I heard, Geno 2.0 tested for Z255, but I am not sure beyond that.

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    We have to recall that there were extremely strong ties between the Irish Sea region and Scandinavia during the historic period. Dublin was perhaps one of the largest Viking trading hubs in Western Europe and at times formed a common Kingdom with the Isle of Man, as well as with heavy connections to the Isles. The Viking kings of Dublin heavily intermarried with the Irish kingly elite, particulary with Leinster. "Máel Mórda mac Murchada" (Mael Mórdha son of Murchadh) was after all both King of Leinster and Uncle of Sigtrygg II Silkbeard Olafsson King of Dublin (whose mother Gormfhlaith was Máel Mórdha sister.)

    Sigtrygg is a good example of interconnect, his mother been of the Uí Dhúnlainghe (Uí Dúnlainge), he married in turn one of daughters of Brian Boru (who in turn married his now widowed mother Gormfhlaith). So with Battle of Clontarf you had Brian (L226?) on one side and his "ex-brother in law" and son-in-law on the other side.

    Of course that ignores the fact that Clontarf had both Irish and Vikings on both sides, Vikings from Limerick, Cork and Waterford fought on Brian side, whereas the army of Leinster fought with the Dublin Vikings along with a large contingent from the Isles and Mann.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    Yeah, I would say that Leinster had its share of invaders over the years, probably much more so than any other province, right Paul? On another note, I do have some 25 and 37-marker matches with roots in France, but getting them to test is the difficult part.

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    Well in context of Viking age the settlements or Longphort (ship enclosures) of the Vikings were on the coast. Obviously they often were situated on interface areas between Irish kingdoms, good example been Dublin which would have fallen on border between the Province of Leinster (Laighin) and Meath (Mí -- Midhe). As a result given the Viking skillset and their merchant connections they generally formed symbiotic connections with local elites.

    This is one of reasons why we then see the Gall-Ghaeil (Norse Gaels) develop, these were basically gaelicised Vikings, where probably the elite may have had viking ancestry but bulk were probably natives. Galloway after all is named after them (the land of the Gall-Ghaeil). As Dublin was most important port in Irish Sea and major trading area in the Viking network it wouldn't surprise me as a result that you see ingress of "men of Leinster" into the Gall-Ghaeil etc. For a time for example York was also ruled by the Dublin Vikings.

    Obviously post the Cambro-Norman invasion Leinster was most heavily settled area however large parts of Leinster remained under rule of the previous dynasts. These tended to be the more marginal uplands/boglands. The normans were heavily concentrated in the valleys of the "Three Sisters" (The Barrow, The Nore and the Slaney), thence we see Mike's Walsh ancestors in Kilkenny. However the major families that held the kingship of Laighin still persisted, specifically in the "mountains" of Wicklow (O'Toole's and O'Brynes) and in North Wexford (McMurrogh Kavanagh etc.). Likewise in the west in marginal boglands of the "Bog of Allen" you see the seven septs of Laois remaining in control of land. The Fitzpatricks remained controll of Northern Osraí (Ossroy) though they lost bulk of their territory in Kilkenny to the Butlers.

    After the Black death a process of "Gaelic reconquest" even roled back alot of this and it's only with the onset of the "Tudor conquest" which started with destruction of the O'Moores (the massacre at Mullaghmast -- a feast under oath of protection akin to a recent episode of "Game of Thrones") in the mid 16th century.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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