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Thread: Z255 & L159.2 (L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2) & Irish Sea/Leinster/Laighin

  1. #11
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    I was in the bookshop today and while looking at a book I took the following photos with my phone. Slightly retouched it to bring out contrasts. It shows the Kingdom of Leinster in turn of it's main dynastical groupings at around the time of the Viking Age.


  2. #12
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    Nice map, Paul! I was doing a little reading about the Kinsellas today after seeing this.

  3. #13
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    Second map from the same book. (Specifically a collection of essays)



    One thing I should point out is it only shows Viking settlements in Leinster. It doesn't show that obviously there was large settlement on Leinster boundary in Waterford, which was on of major Viking Settlements in Ireland.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopfjäger View Post
    Nice map, Paul! I was doing a little reading about the Kinsellas today after seeing this.
    Neal,

    Just to point out "Kinsella" the surname isn't one and the same thing as Uí Cheinnsealaigh (dynastical "Clann" name). Just the way Ó Néill (surname eg. O'Neill) is not one and the same with "Uí Néill" (dynastical grouping divided into Northern and Southern Branches".

    In Old/Middle Irish "Ó" was written as "Ua", this is a singluar meaning grandson/descendant. Uí (pronunced ee) is a plural in comparison.

    In the case of the "Uí Cheinnselaigh" this means the descendants of Énnae Cennsalach (Old-Irish form of name) who is supposedly a contemporary of Niall (of the Nine Hostages) in the 5th century.

    One of the branches of this dynasty was the Síl Fáelchán (síl = síol eg "Seed of" -- "Seed of Fáelchán). Fáelchán to my eye anyway looks like the old Irish genitive case of Faolchú (Wolf/Wild dog) which modern genitive would be: Faolchon

    Faol (older term for wolf) shows up in root word for alot of names. Faolán (Little wolf -- -án = dimunitive) been obviously the first name connected to Whelan/Phelan eg. Ó Faoláin (Faoláin = genitive of Faolán).

    Anyways the "Síl Fáelchán" is the lineage that gave rise to the MacMurroghs (MacMurchadha) who were the ruling branch of the dynasty until the 17th century and obviously Kings of Leinster during later part of the 11th and 12th century (and kept claiming the kingship until at 1632).

    Obviously the most (in)famous of them was Diarmaid MacMurchadha (Diarmait Mac Murchada)


    He who brought Strongbow and the Camboro-Normans to Ireland to reclaim his kingship, and upon whose death Henry II arrived in Ireland to prevent Strongbow (Diarmait's now son-in-law) form declaring himself a King -- soverign can't have one of his subjects becoming a King and thus equal.

    Anyways the Kinsella surname (Ó Ceinnselaigh) are descendant specifically from Diarmaid through his son "Énna Cennselach mac Murchada", who was blinded in 1169 (thus removing him from succession as a king cannot have physical blemishes). Obviously from Énna older brother Domhnall (Dónal) descend the Kavanaghs.

    Both Kavangh and Kinsella thus are really MacMurchadha (MacMurrough), both names started out as Cognomen's (eg. nicknames that mark a branch of the family). So the common ancestor of both the Kavanaghs and the Kinsella's is the bould Diarmaid!

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

  5. #15
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    Thanks again, Paul. Are there mixed feelings among the Irish about Diarmaid? After all, he was the impetus around the Normans coming Ireland.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopfjäger View Post
    Thanks again, Paul. Are there mixed feelings among the Irish about Diarmaid? After all, he was the impetus around the Normans coming Ireland.
    I don't know about Mixed, I would say most Irish people have one one feeling about him, and would regard him with the likes of Judas or perhaps to put an american spin on it, Benedict Arnold

    Of course the whole thing started out over a woman. Diarmaid had "kidnapped" the wife of Tighernán Ua Ruairc King of Bréifne. Though it's more likely that she ran off with Diarmaid as oppose to been kidnapped. That happened in 1152 and she was returned the next year if left a mark with Ua Ruairc. He got his revenge 14 years later when he drove Diarmaid out of Leinster, and the rest is history!

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    I don't know about Mixed, I would say most Irish people have one one feeling about him, and would regard him with the likes of Judas or perhaps to put an american spin on it, Benedict Arnold

    Of course the whole thing started out over a woman. Diarmaid had "kidnapped" the wife of Tighernán Ua Ruairc King of Bréifne. Though it's more likely that she ran off with Diarmaid as oppose to been kidnapped. That happened in 1152 and she was returned the next year if left a mark with Ua Ruairc. He got his revenge 14 years later when he drove Diarmaid out of Leinster, and the rest is history!
    Then you must forgive me for feeling sorry for Diarmaid. He is a cousin, after all lol.

  8. #18
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    He was a cruel King and his own People played a part in his down fall as a King, We are also quick to forget his name was "Diarmait na nGall", as Diarmait Mac Murchada was his name prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick O'Reilly-Rice View Post
    He was a cruel King and his own People played a part in his down fall as a King, We are also quick to forget his name was "Diarmait na nGall", as Diarmait Mac Murchada was his name prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion.
    He never described himself as "Diarmait na nGall", this is a later "poetic name" given to him by the annalists etc. To his death he was Diarmait Mac Murchadha. As for been cruel, well all kings were, if you read enough of the annals you can see that most times Kings/Lords (Tiarna) were killed by their own kindred.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

  10. #20
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    We have a new Geno 2.0 Z255+/L159.2- in the Ireland project. He doesn't have STR values however his father had tested earlier (L21+/L159.2-) and has 111 STR's.
    N74958 (Gleeson).

    His closest match at 111 markers in the project is McMahon (202249) who is also confirmed as Z255+/L159.2-

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