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Thread: Z255 & L159.2 (L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2) & Irish Sea/Leinster/Laighin

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopfjäger View Post
    Mike, I am looking at the Norwegian Z255 haplotypes and can tell you that I do not see an affinity with the Byrnes, Kinsellas, or others said to descend from the Laigin, other than the fact that both groups share the Z255 mutation. I personally think it makes more sense that Z255 is an extension of L21, and is found throughout Northwest Europe. Much like the French and German Z255+ folks, their inheritance of the mutation has more to do with being located at the fringes of Europe, rather than being Irish.
    Thanks. What are the TMRCA estimates for Z255? Do the Norwegian guys have the 464x=2c2g mutations?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thanks. What are the TMRCA estimates for Z255? Do the Norwegian guys have the 464x=2c2g mutations?
    The Norwegians fall into the CCGG category, but this doesn't do much as far as separating them since our Lorraine L159.2+ guy is also CCGG. I am not well-versed in the TMRCA estimates for Z255, but remember you or someone saying it is at least 1000 years old. It's likely older than that considering the presence near the Rhineland.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopfjäger View Post
    Thanks, Mark. I am still of the impression that Z255/L159.2 first manifested itself somewhere between France and Germany, possibly along the Rhine.
    Edit: Added original info posted in the previous thread

    Here is my TMRCA's using Bird's q stable STRs 67marker panel

    Z255 All
    Coalescence / Founders
    1,530.1 / 1,625.0

    L159.2 All
    Coalescence / Founders
    1,481.4 / 1,560.3

    L159.2 England
    Coalescence
    1,578.4

    L159.2 Norway
    Coalescence
    1,170.3

    L159.2 Scotland
    Coalescence
    1,521.42

    MJost


    I did neglect to report the Ireland info

    L159.2 Ireland n=48
    Coalescence
    1,482.2


    It could very well have a Rhine core origin ancestry. Of tested members there was only two continental guys, one German and one French. Of 134 HTs, 91 have reported 'Old World County' entries.

    Lets look at the Varieties with their Variance and Coalescence (Closest MRCA) Ages with three or more HTs. This is your weekend project:
    Follow the data.

    Code:
    255-1830-IS       3.48 / 1,102.13
    255-1830-IS-A    4.66 / 1,477.72
    255-1830-IS-A Ireland 6.88 / 2,177.86
    255-1830-IS-B1  3.64 / 1,152.73
    255-1830-IS-B1  England  4.16 / 1,317.80
    255-1830-IS-B1  Ireland 2.16 / 684.24
    255-1830-IS-B1  Scotland 2.56 / 811.75
    255-1830-IS-B2  2.07 / 657.02
    255-1830-IS-B3  1.78 / 563.16
    255-1830-IS-C    2.52 / 797.82
    255-1830-IS-C  Ireland 2.56 / 811.75
    255-1830-IS-D    3.80 / 1,204.55
    255-1830-IS-D  Norway 0.89 / 281.58
    255-1830-IS-G    3.60 / 1,140.41
    255-1830-IS-G  Ireland 1.78 / 563.16
    255-1830-IS-M    3.73 / 1,182.06
    255-1830-IS-M  Ireland  3.91 / 1,237.42
    255-1830-IS-B's   3.90 / 1,233.88
    255-1830-IS-B's  England  4.16 / 1,317.80
    255-1830-IS-B's  Ireland   3.22 / 1,020.73
    255-1830-IS-B's  Scotland 2.94 / 932.74
    Sorted by variance
    HTML Code:
    255-1830-IS-A	Ireland	6.88	/	2,177.86
    255-1830-IS-A		4.66	/	1,477.72
    255-1830-IS-B1	England	4.16	/	1,317.80
    255-1830-IS-B's	England	4.16	/	1,317.80
    255-1830-IS-M	Ireland	3.91	/	1,237.42
    255-1830-IS-B's		3.9	/	1,233.88
    255-1830-IS-D		3.8	/	1,204.55
    255-1830-IS-M		3.73	/	1,182.06
    255-1830-IS-B1		3.64	/	1,152.73
    255-1830-IS-G		3.6	/	1,140.41
    255-1830-IS		3.48	/	1,102.13
    255-1830-IS-B's	Ireland	3.22	/	1,020.73
    255-1830-IS-B's	Scotland	2.94	/	932.74
    255-1830-IS-B1	Scotland	2.56	/	811.75
    255-1830-IS-C	Ireland	2.56	/	811.75
    255-1830-IS-C		2.52	/	797.82
    255-1830-IS-B1	Ireland	2.16	/	684.24
    255-1830-IS-B2		2.07	/	657.02
    255-1830-IS-B3		1.78	/	563.16
    255-1830-IS-G	Ireland	1.78	/	563.16
    255-1830-IS-D	Norway	0.89	/	281.58
    Last edited by MJost; 08-23-2013 at 04:35 PM.
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  4. #24
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    mike,

    Please move these L159.2 conversations to another Thread.

    Mjost

    [[[Mikewww/Moderator 08/23/2013: On the P312/U106 Germanic/Celtic thread we started getting into the weeds so I'm moving some of those posts here, per Mark's wise request.]]]
    Last edited by Mikewww; 08-23-2013 at 03:20 PM.
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  5. #25
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    Mark,

    So If I'm reading your post correct the highest varience withing L159.2+ (as oppose to Z255+/L159.2-) is in Ireland is this correct? What is the definition regarding the various subclusters? I'm assuming -B is to do with Beattie's?

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Mark,

    So If I'm reading your post correct the highest varience withing L159.2+ (as oppose to Z255+/L159.2-) is in Ireland is this correct? What is the definition regarding the various subclusters? I'm assuming -B is to do with Beattie's?

    -Paul
    (DF41+)
    The highest two varieties are these two A clusters.

    255-1830-IS-A Ireland 6.88 / 2,177.86
    255-1830-IS-A 4.66 / 1,477.72

    I dont think -B's are defined for the Beattie's, b

    All of this needs to be investigates as to how the ages match up with any known history with these L159.2 guys using surnames etc.

    Mark
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  7. #27
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    How do the Z255+/L159.2- people fit into the Z255+ picture? Surnames like O'Shea (Cork), Gleeson (Tipperary), McHale (Mayo) seem to represent the Irish Z255+, L159.2-. Carroll and McMahon also have people who are Z255+, L159.2-.

    Margaret Jordan

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by marosjor View Post
    How do the Z255+/L159.2- people fit into the Z255+ picture? Surnames like O'Shea (Cork), Gleeson (Tipperary), McHale (Mayo) seem to represent the Irish Z255+, L159.2-. Carroll and McMahon also have people who are Z255+, L159.2-.

    Margaret Jordan
    Good question.

    R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* I will assume as I didn't check, are negative L159.2

    Z255* All
    Variance / Coalescence / Founders
    4.67 / 1,479.54 / 1,670.3

    Z255* Ireland
    Variance / Coalescence / Founders
    5.15 / 1,630.62 / 2,296.7

    Do these Surnames help converge to a probable geographical origination? Seem to me they do.

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Good question.

    R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* I will assume as I didn't check, are negative L159.2

    Z255* All
    Variance / Coalescence / Founders
    4.67 / 1,479.54 / 1,670.3

    Z255* Ireland
    Variance / Coalescence / Founders
    5.15 / 1,630.62 / 2,296.7

    Do these Surnames help converge to a probable geographical origination? Seem to me they do.

    MJost
    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Good question.

    R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* I will assume as I didn't check, are negative L159.2

    Z255* All
    Variance / Coalescence / Founders
    4.67 / 1,479.54 / 1,670.3

    Z255* Ireland
    Variance / Coalescence / Founders
    5.15 / 1,630.62 / 2,296.7

    Do these Surnames help converge to a probable geographical origination? Seem to me they do.

    MJost
    Thanks Mark. I wouldn't assume that Z255* implies L159.2-. Geno 2.0 doesn't test for L159.2 for example. I am inclined to think that the surnames associated with Z255+, L159.2 does imply an Irish cluster.

    Regards,
    Margaret

  10. #30
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    I guess MikeW did name the clusters, originally, by surnames.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beatty...A/message/3583

    Re: Another look at the major lineages of R-L159.2 and Irish Sea folks
    Posted by MikeW Thu Jul 14, 2011

    > > Here are the STR signature criteria I used. If a surname appears three
    times, I list it in brackets.
    > >
    > > I generally don't use cultural or geographic labels so the 1830-IS is just
    neutral label for what is basically Irish Sea or Leinster, etc.
    > >
    > > 1830-IS-A___: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 446=14 391=10 (389i>=14)
    > > 1830-IS-B1__: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 449<=29 [Beattie]
    > > 1830-IS-B2__: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 449<=29 [Byrnes, Barry]
    > > 1830-IS-B3__: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 389i=14 458=16 464d=18 557=17 446=14
    [Rhea]
    > > 1830-IS-C___: 448<=18 449>=30 389i=14 442=11 446>=14 464c,d=16,16 439=11
    [Cavanaugh]
    > > 1830-IS-D___: 448<=18 449>=30 389i=14,15 442<=11 393=14
    > > 1830-IS-G___: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 439>=13 464=15,15,16,17 [Gaston]
    > > 1830-IS-M___: 448<=18 449>=30 389i=14 442=11 459=9,9 446=14 557=17 [Murphy]
    > > 1830-IS-O___: 448<=18 449>=30 389i=14,15 442=11 406s1=11 557=17 (446>=14)
    [O'Shea, McCain]
    > > 1830-IS*____: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 (389i>=14) [McHale] ... a paragroup
    that doesn't fit into above
    > > 1830X-L159+_: L159.2+ but not 1830-IS = f52325 McCain, f189806 Daniels,
    fN12172 O'Connor
    > >
    > > These are not strict criteria. I just looked for patterns at 67 markers and
    double checked the GD's before grouping. I generally only look at surnames as
    "tie-breakers." This is a work in progress so I'm looking for feedback."

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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