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Thread: L21+ DF13+ DF21+ in La Spezia (Italy)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The Asiago Basso paternal has been living in Asigo Vicenza from 1757 ....

    the La Spezia Basso line would seem to be from Cinque Terre area a small town called Vernazza
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Terre
    ..................I have stayed there for a few days near Castello Doria


    https://www.wikitree.com/photo/jpg/Basso_Name_Study-1


    I spent many a night in the wine-bars ...all called Enoteca ( ligurian language ) ..........similar setups to the Venetian wine-bars called Bacaro ( venetian language )
    Enoteca is Italian not a Ligurian word, this derives from the Greek: Eno=Vino= wine teca=ripostiglio=storeroom

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    There are Bell beakers sites all over Ireland, these Rathlin DF21 people did not just travel from the continent on their own build a grave and then fall into it,
    They also did not just spring up out of the ground in Ireland either. They had ancestors; Bell Beaker did not originate in Ireland; Bell Beaker came to the Isles from the Continent; and you are the one who said he thinks S5488 is 4500 years old, making it too old to have originated in Ireland, unless it predates Bell Beaker there.

    Chronologically, it does not matter how widespread Bell Beaker graves are in Ireland if none of them dates to before 2300 BC and you are claiming S5488 dates to 2500 BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    I superimposed a map of Cist Burial sites throughout Ireland over a map showing of the location of stone circles and there is a definite correlation between them, we really do not know how long DF21 has been in Ireland or whether DF21 is an ancient Isles proto Celtic type that may have been involved in the construction of Stonehenge which has been dated between 2000 and 3000 BC, equally some have dated the construction of Newgrange to this same time period and given that they both fulfil the same function of recording the Solstice period I am firmly of the opinion that they were built by the same people, indeed there are similar constructions to Newgrange in Wales and Orkney in Scotland.
    I think it likely that no kind of P312 predates Bell Beaker anywhere in the Isles. Since the earliest Bell Beaker burials in Britain date to about 2400 BC, and those in Ireland to 2300 BC, it isn't likely S5488 originated there, that is, if you are right about S5488 being 4500 years old.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    The age of S5488 must be calculated from the very large Genetic distances between its different branches and these branches are overwhelmingly Isles based, if you were to jump on every European result as proof of origin then Sweden would be top of the list however as we see from the results we nearly always get an Isles based match that is their closest relative, even 382256 Johannes Bryngelsson who is the most likely Scandanavian result has a Genetic Distance of 38 to another R-BY12129 Irish ancestor with which places their common ancestor around 2500 years ago which is too short for any kind of an origin theory. The fact is we simply do not know but we must try to piece together what we have to come up with theories that are plausible and not rule anything out till we know more, I am not adverse to a continental origin because we are talking between 4000 to 5000 years old, you will recall that I speculated some time ago on DF21 being associated with the BOII Celtic tribe who are reputed to be connected with the Tuatha De Dannan, maybe an Italian DF21 Cluster will support that theory
    I am not inclined to jump on Sweden or anywhere else for the birthplace of S5488, and, honestly, I don't think I read your speculation about the Boii.

    I just think that it's a stretch to think that a single 12-marker match is of much significance either way in Basso's ancestral story.

    If you are arguing that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland, then obviously it could have originated there.

    But I don't think it did, and from what I have read of what Dr. Bradley is implying in his hints about Irish prehistory, i.e., that there was a large scale population replacement in the Bronze Age, we may find out fairly soon.
    Last edited by rms2; 11-17-2016 at 06:32 PM.
     


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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I think it likely that no kind of P312 predates Bell Beaker anywhere in the Isles. Since the earliest Bell Beaker burials in Britain date to about 2400 BC, and those in Ireland to 2300 BC, it isn't likely S5488 originated there, that is, if you are right about S5488 being 4500 years old.
    . . .
    If you are arguing that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland, then obviously it could have originated there.
    Wow, this guy is really sticking to his guns, long after the battle has swept past him and moved on to a new front. I can't believe he's still shilling this same tired argument even as the data, and opinion of leading archaeologists, has passed him by while he stands still. I guess he chooses to ignore the contrary data in academic publications that I referenced a few comments ago. I have pointed out these publications to him several times in the past, and he refuses to acknowledge their existence.

    If it doesn't support your position, just close your eyes and scream loudly to shut it all out. What you don't know can't hurt you.
    Last edited by miiser; 11-17-2016 at 10:30 PM.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    They also did not just spring up out of the ground in Ireland either. They had ancestors; Bell Beaker did not originate in Ireland; Bell Beaker came to the Isles from the Continent; and you are the one who said he thinks S5488 is 4500 years old, making it too old to have originated in Ireland, unless it predates Bell Beaker there.

    Chronologically, it does not matter how widespread Bell Beaker graves are in Ireland if none of them dates to before 2300 BC and you are claiming S5488 dates to 2500 BC.



    I think it likely that no kind of P312 predates Bell Beaker anywhere in the Isles. Since the earliest Bell Beaker burials in Britain date to about 2400 BC, and those in Ireland to 2300 BC, it isn't likely S5488 originated there, that is, if you are right about S5488 being 4500 years old.
    Bell Beaker is a type of burial rite that these people performed, how can you place a specific date on this you can only date some existing finds, there are dozens of differant types of Bell beaker burials, some in Cist chambers, some cremated, some with beakers, some without beakers, some in existing Megalithic Tombs, etc, the fact is that skeletons found in a Cist Bell beaker burial chamber in Ireland tested to DF21 and these are over four thousand years old, anyone looking at the DF21 project can clearly see that the bias for all strands of DF21 is to Ireland and Britain, I have genetic distances in excess of 50 markers at 111 for S5488 people alone which means that DF21 is probably in excess of 4500 years old and maybe older.

    DF21 is NOT the Bell beaker signature, L21 IS and this spawned all of the various Celtic tribes across the Isles and probably Europe as well, evidence of a specific type of Halstatt Iron age sword was found in BRONZE in Britain which is evidence that an outward migration to Europe from the Isles took place and may turn the whole continental invader theory on its head and this is mentioned in the excellent program called the Celts Blood Iron and Sacrifice which can be watched on You Tube.

    Someone built the Irish Newgrange and someone built the British Stonehenge and both fulfil the same function, who do you suggest built these and what was there DNA type if it was not P312 as you suggest, and more importantly WHERE DID THEY GO. It makes much more sense to look for an L21 migration into Britain and Ireland from around 5000 years ago, the oldest Bell Beaker finds in Europe are from the Iberian peninsula and are dated to 2900 BC, also there is evidence of a language similar to Q Celtic found there as well and even an Ogham type stone so maybe there was a separate migration of Bell Beaker to Ireland from this region sometime between 2900 BC and 2300 BC. This is actually remarkably similar to the old Sons of Mil legend who were reputed to have landed in Kerry and as I pointed out before the existing Cist burial chambers are heavily reflected in DF21 hotspot areas and likewise Stone Circles, which is exactly what Stonehenge is.



    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    But I don't think it did, and from what I have read of what Dr. Bradley is implying in his hints about Irish prehistory, i.e., that there was a large scale population replacement in the Bronze Age, we may find out fairly soon.
    SO YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT THE DF21 PEOPLE FOUND ON RATHLIN MADE IT TO THE ISLAND FROM EUROPE BUILT A GRAVE FELL DEAD INTO IT AND THAT THE DF21 PEOPLE OF IRISH DESCENT ARE PART OF A MUCH LATER MIGRATION, WE ARE NOW ENTERING THE TWILIGHT ZONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by oneillabu; 11-18-2016 at 12:36 AM.

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    Bell Beaker is a type of burial rite that these people performed, how can you place a specific date on this you can only date some existing finds . . .
    Well, the oldest Bell Beaker burials in Ireland date to about 2300 BC. Those in Britain are slightly older and date to 2400 BC. Sorry that does not suit you.

    I see you must be arguing either that Bell Beaker was in Ireland before its oldest known burials, in which case you are entitled to your opinion, but there is no support for it, or that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland, in which case the same comments apply.


    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    Someone built the Irish Newgrange . . .
    Quite true. Someone built Angkor Wat, too, and the pyramids of Egypt, and the ziggurats of Mesopotamia and on and on.

    But Newgrange predates Beaker in Ireland and is a Neolithic passage tomb, undoubtedly built by Neolithic farmers of the type Dr. Bradley says was replaced in the Bronze Age.

    Since a replacement evidently occurred, and it was L21 and its subclades that remained afterward, I suspect it was something other than L21 and its subclades that was there before the replacement took place.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    SO YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT THE DF21 PEOPLE FOUND ON RATHLIN MADE IT TO THE ISLAND FROM EUROPE BUILT A GRAVE FELL DEAD INTO IT AND THAT THE DF21 PEOPLE OF IRISH DESCENT ARE PART OF A MUCH LATER MIGRATION, WE ARE NOW ENTERING THE TWILIGHT ZONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I'm not sure where you got the ideas you evidently feel it necessary to shout about. I did not say or imply any such silliness. I think L21 and at least some of its subclades that are old enough, like DF21 (probably), got to the Isles with Bell Beaker beginning somewhere around 2400 BC, perhaps slightly earlier.

    I did not say nor would I say anything as patently ridiculous as what you suggested in upper case letters above.

    You said you think S5488 was born about 4500 years ago. I merely stated the obvious for you, i.e., that if you are right, then S5488 could not have arisen in Ireland if it is connected with Bell Beaker, since the very earliest Bell Beaker burials there date to 2300 BC and no earlier.

    That's pretty straightforward. I'm not sure how it inspired your upper case rant.
    Last edited by rms2; 11-18-2016 at 06:17 PM. Reason: To correct a typo.
     


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  10. #26
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    BTW, there is at least one person posting in this thread who is on my ignore list, just in case anyone is wondering why I am not responding to those posts (I can't see them because I have elected not to bother).
    Last edited by rms2; 11-18-2016 at 12:52 PM.
     


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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, the oldest Bell Beaker burials in Ireland date to about 2300 BC. Those in Britain are slightly older and date to 2400 BC. Sorry that does not suit you.

    I see you must be arguing either that Bell Beaker was in Ireland before its oldest known burials, in which case you are entitled to your opinion, but there is no support for it, or that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland, in which case the same comments apply.
    We are all entitled to our opinions, lets just see how things play out with more testing of ancient remains, as things stand at the moment DF21 is the oldest known Celtic DNA in both Britain and Ireland however it is incorrect to label DF21 as the most likely source of Beaker DNA because that clearly is L21 and because DF21 is derived from L21 then we have two possible scenarios, the first is that the L21 ancestor of DF21 arrived in Ireland and Britain sometime betweeen 4500 and 5000 years ago which would mean that they were associated with the building of Megalithic structures in parallel to the Beaker burials, the fact that some Beaker burials were carried out in these Megalithic tombs strongly suggests a connection between both and supports this theory. Also the earliest Beaker remains are to be found in the Iberian pennisula dating from 2900 BC according to the Wikpedia article (link below) this article also dates the Beakers in both Ireland and Britain to 2500 BC.

    The second is that the L21 Beaker people were completely unconnected to the earlier people and simply arrived from the continent around 2400 BC, I guess this is the theory that you prescribe to, the problem with this is that the Ballnahatty DNA find is from a Female and does not prove anything, as we have seen from the Rathlin finds there was a wide variety of Female DNA types because all three had a differant Female DNA type which is proof that these early people had a large amount of Females in the tribal group from various different locations, The only thing we can be absolutely sure of is Y DNA because it maps the movement of people from a very early time, I do not subscribe to the replacement theory put forward by Bradley, for what it is worth FTDNA have a new feature called Ancient Origins, I have looked at three L21 people including myself and they all show Farmer and Hunter Gatherer both in the mid 40% mark and 12% Metal age invader, you can make your own mind up as the usefulness of this information.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture



    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I'm not sure where you got the ideas you evidently feel it necessary to shout about. I did not say or imply any such silliness. I think L21 and at least some of its subclades that are old enough, like DF21 (probably), got to the Isles with Bell Beaker beginning somewhere around 2400 BC, perhaps slightly earlier.

    I did not say nor would I say anything as patently ridiculous as what you suggested in upper case letters above.
    Glad to hear it because last year when the Rathlin results were published that was exactly what was proposed on this forum by a number of individuals, it really is so Silly isn't it.
    Last edited by oneillabu; 11-18-2016 at 07:12 PM.

  13. #28
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    Hi there, another result of Basso from Yseq. He's S7200-

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    We are all entitled to our opinions, lets just see how things play out with more testing of ancient remains, as things stand at the moment DF21 is the oldest known Celtic DNA in both Britain and Ireland however it is incorrect to label DF21 as the most likely source of Beaker DNA because that clearly is L21 and because DF21 is derived from L21 then we have two possible scenarios, the first is that the L21 ancestor of DF21 arrived in Ireland and Britain sometime betweeen 4500 and 5000 years ago which would mean that they were associated with the building of Megalithic structures in parallel to the Beaker burials, the fact that some Beaker burials were carried out in these Megalithic tombs strongly suggests a connection between both and supports this theory. Also the earliest Beaker remains are to be found in the Iberian pennisula dating from 2900 BC according to the Wikpedia article (link below) this article also dates the Beakers in both Ireland and Britain to 2500 BC.
    Well, we were talking about Ireland mainly, and the oldest Beaker burials there date from 2300 BC, which is about 100 years after the earliest Beaker burials in Britain, so it doesn't seem likely Beaker got to Ireland much earlier than that.

    I did not label DF21 as "the most likely source of Beaker DNA", because I don't think it is. There are plenty of other subclades of L21 and some non-L21 clades of P312 that probably came with Beaker, as well.

    But I think DF21 is old enough to have originated on the Continent with Bell Beaker and to have arrived in the Isles in the body of some Bell Beaker man (or more than one).

    I don't think L21 of any kind had anything to do with megalithic burials in Britain that predate Bell Beaker. Those guys were probably I2a and G2a.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    The second is that the L21 Beaker people were completely unconnected to the earlier people and simply arrived from the continent around 2400 BC, I guess this is the theory that you prescribe to, the problem with this is that the Ballnahatty DNA find is from a Female and does not prove anything, as we have seen from the Rathlin finds there was a wide variety of Female DNA types because all three had a differant Female DNA type which is proof that these early people had a large amount of Females in the tribal group from various different locations, The only thing we can be absolutely sure of is Y DNA because it maps the movement of people from a very early time, I do not subscribe to the replacement theory put forward by Bradley, for what it is worth FTDNA have a new feature called Ancient Origins, I have looked at three L21 people including myself and they all show Farmer and Hunter Gatherer both in the mid 40% mark and 12% Metal age invader, you can make your own mind up as the usefulness of this information . . .
    You'll have to take that up with Dr. Bradley. He is the one who said there was massive replacement in Ireland beginning in the Bronze Age, and he is the one with ancient Irish samples in his lab. L21 and its subclades remained after the replacement, so evidently they weren't replaced. Something else belonging to Neolithic farmers was.

    If you think DF21 descends from the Neolithic farmers who built the megaliths, thus far the evidence is not on your side.
     


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  17. #30
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    it's worth remembering that the Rathlin men had Neolithic EEF admixture in their genomes, however if memory serves me right their admixture appeared closer to EEF remains from Germany than they did to the Neolithic EEF female from Down that was sequence.

    So this would imply that they had already admixed before arriving in Ireland and than perhaps admixed more (perhaps increasing levels of EEF/WHG over time). I'd be curious actually how ancient remains would compare against FTDNA's calculator in this regard.
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