Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 81

Thread: Where did U152 originate? and how/where the early branches expand?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,393
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Where did U152 originate? and how/where the early branches expand?

    U152 is one of the big, old three superclades of P312. Can understanding the distribution patterns of its earliest branches, L2, Z36 and Z56 help us understand U152's early growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Didier Vernade
    I think an unexpected finding in early SNP testing was the north italian high densities of U152. Now the question is : which U152 ? and what about the origin of the group taking into account the 3 main branches : L2, Z36, Z56 ?
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-05/1368267729

  2. #2
    Member
    Posts
    94
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    British
    Nationality
    British/Canadian/US
    Y-DNA (P)
    u152-PF4363
    mtDNA (M)
    v

    England Canada United States of America Guernsey Wales
    A couple of years ago, Doggerland was put forward as a likely place, and by the moderator of another group. The limited evidence of the time did lean to this idea. u 152 around surrounding coastlines of England, Holland, France).
    I think MtDNA V originates here... and if not u152, what ?
    I think the land sinking was @1200 BC
    It would explain some reasoning for a west to east movement.
    I don't say this idea of origin is The One... just a discussion starter.
    There would be no "Hot Spot" for Doggerland, as it is underwater of course.
    I HATE WINDOWS 8 !
    Rc
    Last edited by Claxon; 05-14-2013 at 02:31 AM.

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Posts
    4
    Sex

    Hello,

    I have a problem with southern Germany peopling at early Hallstatt times. Let's consider the Celtic expansion as a track. I have no problem with a pre-celtic P312 expansion followed by a split in 3 main branches : one branch is NOT Celtic , namely DF27 ; the 2 others would be "briton" (L21) and Celts (U152) from Hallstall and La Tene. Of course, other groups might have been associated and some of these might have been key groups as identifiers. Both L21 and U152 would be Celtic with a fluctuating east - west division. This scheme would favor a P312 split in DF27 first and { L21 + U152} and only later a split in L21 + U152 but I have not heard of any such genetic evidence. If the scheme above is accepted, then the north western maximum of U152 in northern Italy might only be the result of less counter fighting by germanic people (and others) south of the Alps as opposed to north of the Alps.

  4. #4
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,418
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27>Z195>FGC23196
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Didier View Post
    Hello,

    I have a problem with southern Germany peopling at early Hallstatt times. Let's consider the Celtic expansion as a track. I have no problem with a pre-celtic P312 expansion followed by a split in 3 main branches : one branch is NOT Celtic , namely DF27 ; the 2 others would be "briton" (L21) and Celts (U152) from Hallstall and La Tene. Of course, other groups might have been associated and some of these might have been key groups as identifiers. Both L21 and U152 would be Celtic with a fluctuating east - west division. This scheme would favor a P312 split in DF27 first and { L21 + U152} and only later a split in L21 + U152 but I have not heard of any such genetic evidence. If the scheme above is accepted, then the north western maximum of U152 in northern Italy might only be the result of less counter fighting by germanic people (and others) south of the Alps as opposed to north of the Alps.
    How do you know DF27 is not celtic? How do we know U152 is? L21 was in the Isles quite a while before there was ever a Halstatt. If DF27 is Iberian, then you could theorize that DF27 is to the Halstatt Celts what L21 is to the Halstatt Celts, just proto-celts or pre-celts. Some subclades of the same Haplotype could be German while others are Celtic, depending on how they formed relationships with other groups. DF27 is very strong in Iberia, but it also has a showing in the Netherlands and along the south shores of the North Sea, as well as Britain. So you have one SNP such as Z220 that is found in three different places with significant populations, yet three different cultural groups. With U152 being as concentrated in Northern Italy as it is, the three main possibilities are Etruscans, Boii Celts, or Lombards. I have no opinion as to which one I think is responsible for bring U152 to Northern Italy. I would think that the most likely culprit would be the Boii Celts, but sometimes I think it could of also been Lombards, however, I am not sure of U152 distribution in the North Sea area.

  5. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,957
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    How do you know DF27 is not celtic? How do we know U152 is? L21 was in the Isles quite a while before there was ever a Halstatt. If DF27 is Iberian, then you could theorize that DF27 is to the Halstatt Celts what L21 is to the Halstatt Celts, just proto-celts or pre-celts. Some subclades of the same Haplotype could be German while others are Celtic, depending on how they formed relationships with other groups. DF27 is very strong in Iberia, but it also has a showing in the Netherlands and along the south shores of the North Sea, as well as Britain. So you have one SNP such as Z220 that is found in three different places with significant populations, yet three different cultural groups. With U152 being as concentrated in Northern Italy as it is, the three main possibilities are Etruscans, Boii Celts, or Lombards. I have no opinion as to which one I think is responsible for bring U152 to Northern Italy. I would think that the most likely culprit would be the Boii Celts, but sometimes I think it could of also been Lombards, however, I am not sure of U152 distribution in the North Sea area.
    Trying to label these two SNPs with cultures that are thousands of years older than their appearance is not all that useful. I have no doubt that by the time Celts, Germans, or Italics were first written about by the Greeks, they were already well established in most of the places they appear today.

    Having said that, U152 was already in Italy during the Bell Beaker period. Its current distribution gives no other explanation. It is way too frequent in places were there was no Celtic presence nor Germanic migrations.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  6. #6
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,418
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27>Z195>FGC23196
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Trying to label these two SNPs with cultures that are thousands of years older than their appearance is not all that useful. I have no doubt that by the time Celts, Germans, or Italics were first written about by the Greeks, they were already well established in most of the places they appear today.

    Having said that, U152 was already in Italy during the Bell Beaker period. Its current distribution gives no other explanation. It is way too frequent in places were there was no Celtic presence nor Germanic migrations.
    So do you support a U152 continuum in northern Italy? If U152 was in Northern Italy since beaker times then that would mean that it survived Etruscans, Boii, and Lombards. According to historical sources the Boii essentially wiped out the Etruscans, replacing them. Having said that, the same was always portrayed during the Anglo-Saxon invasions and I think dna evidence is showing that the accounts weren't exactly accurate. You could theorize the same happened in the case of the Etruscans. You're thoughts?

  7. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,957
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    So do you support a U152 continuum in northern Italy? If U152 was in Northern Italy since beaker times then that would mean that it survived Etruscans, Boii, and Lombards. According to historical sources the Boii essentially wiped out the Etruscans, replacing them. Having said that, the same was always portrayed during the Anglo-Saxon invasions and I think dna evidence is showing that the accounts weren't exactly accurate. You could theorize the same happened in the case of the Etruscans. You're thoughts?
    The Boii only displaced the Etruscans in the Po valley and not in Etruria proper. The Etruscans were gradually assimilated into the Roman way of life and speech. The Etruscans themselves displaced the Umbrians in many areas, and that was just the recorded history of the area. As one can imagine, the elite probably changed hands in these areas many, many, times, but there was probably an expansion of different Y-DNA lineages, not a contraction.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Diana (05-15-2013)

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    According to historical sources the Boii essentially wiped out the Etruscans, replacing them.
    I have written about this since I wrote on Rootsweb, i.e. till the end of 2007 when I was banned. That the Boii wiped out Etruscans and others from the Po valley is an history ad usum Delphini, i.e Celts or who thinks to be so wherever he is.
    Romans fought many wars against them and annihilated them pretty all. The few who remained did the other way around way to Bohemia. As infinite studies have demonstrated also recently, Italy is peopled from many thousands of years by the same population, has had a little introgression from elsewhere, and R-U152 for its distribution is in Italy from many thousands of years. You know that I think and have written many times from before any other place in Europe.
    Not only R1b, but also R1a many scholars like Tomatoes, Semargl etc. (see eng.molgen) are realizing that was in Italy probably long before any other place: R-M420, R-Z93*, R-Z93/Z96 etc.
    I.e all what I have written in these years.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Rathna For This Useful Post:

     Diana (05-15-2013)

  11. #9
    Junior Member
    Posts
    4
    Sex

    Now that more data are accumulating at the SNP level , one of the question is : how are distributed the main U152 branches ? For example : is the L2 branch typical of northern Italy while other branches are east or north of these early L2 ?
    Another question that I tried to raise above is : any clue of whether DF27 splits first from [L21 + U152] ? I don't believe in a split in 3 exactly at the same time and I find it surprising that no SNP was found to tell in which order the split occurred. If no such SNP (after checking) it would mean a fairly fast distribution in 3 branches and that may have a meaning.
    Celtic Boii are most probably the latest U152 in northern Italy. The question is : from where and from when. U152 might have evolved in situ in northern Italy as suggested by Richard . However, keeping track of the early Celts leads to the (now) Germanic side of the Alps and there are many evidences that Germanic tribes coming from the north pushed these Celts away. What are the SNP U152 branches there ?

  12. #10
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,112
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15743
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    Just making note of the fact that Didier has begun to post here -- and I hope to see you participate in several of our DF27 discussions.

Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Z56 (U152>Z56) - an early branch of U152
    By TigerMW in forum R1b-U152
    Replies: 90
    Last Post: 05-19-2021, 04:42 AM
  2. Replies: 904
    Last Post: 04-20-2021, 11:12 PM
  3. Branches of U152>L2>Z49>Z12222, Z150, Z26720
    By MitchellSince1893 in forum L2
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-21-2018, 04:01 AM
  4. Replies: 40
    Last Post: 05-29-2013, 01:38 AM
  5. Georgia DNA project and early branches of R1b
    By TigerMW in forum R1b Early Subclades
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-17-2013, 08:15 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •