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Thread: Z209 (DF27>Z196>Z209) and subclades - including NS Cluster and M153

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    DF27(Z209 and clades/ NS Cluster)

    I thought I would start a new topic for the NS cluster individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    I thought I would start a new topic for the NS cluster individuals.
    I've got a kit that is North-South Cluster and has a test in progress right now for Z220.

    Just to make sure everyone knows. The North-South Cluster STR signature is 437=14 448=18 GataH4=10. The long known M153, so called "Basque marker", SNP turns out to be a subclade of these people.

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    I guess I should at least say hi on this thread -- since I was unable to post here for a couple of weeks, though wanting to.

    When my cousin gets his Z210 result from Geno 2, I'll probably make some organized commentary based on it. We're Z220+ and L484.NS+, but Z216- (as both Webb and Mikewww know -- but the assumption must be that someone might read this thread who doesn't know us from elsewhere). So far, I don't think any phylogenic distinction has been made between Z216 and Z278 (formerly called rs1469371); they are different, but seem to track in a 1:1 relationship. Everybody tests positive for both, or negative for both. The same seems to be true of Z209 and Z220; you have both SNPs, or lack both. Presumably, the guys who have only tested Z220+ also belong in this thread. We haven't yet made the call whether L484.NS splits from the main group above, or below, Z210.

    Finding these branching points -- even if a particular SNP affects only a few families that we know of -- is also helpful in dating the other branches (relative to each other).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I've got a kit that is North-South Cluster and has a test in progress right now for Z220.
    ... The North-South Cluster STR signature is 437=14 448=18 GataH4=10.
    Okay, I'm in for step one. My father's maternal grandfather's line has come back as Z220+

    269087 Samuel Pletcher, b.1846, ?Belmont Co., Ohio, USA (They are from Ohio for sure, we have references to "Belmont".) They were Anna-Baptists and reportedly came from Pennsylvania through Indiana to Ohio. Pletcher genealogists are convinced they are from the German/Swiss border and migrated to the US right before the Revolutionary War. They were thrown out of the border region at the end of religious conflicts and were the "odd" man out, so to speak.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-07-2013 at 12:33 PM.

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    I asked Mark J if he could compare my 67 marker string and the Vanderhoof 67 marker string. I match Vanderhoof's at 37 markers step 4, and at 67 markers we have a GD of 10. They are Z220 as well. He came up with an average of 1060 AD, give or take 500 years. This means my ancestors split from the Vanderhoof's, presumably in the Netherlands, because that is where they are from, and entered Britain as early as 500 and as late as 1500. I am leaning towards the 1500 timeframe, because according to the Wilder family history, our earliest ancestor came into Britain with King Henry III army around 1450. So my line has its own history as to how we ended up in Britain. But it poses the question, how did the brunt of Z220 end up in Britain? If it is found in the Netherlands, then it could have gotten there by people who were also settling in Britain, or it could have come in later with the Anglo-Saxon invasions or Viking settlements. Since it is found in the Netherlands, then one would have to assume that is is also found amongst the Flemish, which also means it could have come in with the Normans as there was a sizable force with William from Flanders at Hastings because his sons mother was from Flanders. And then there is the Flemish migrations of the weavers into Britain around 1300. These Flemish settled in wales, Bristol, and Manchester. A lot of possibilities.

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    Z209 (DF27>Z196>Z209) and subclades - including NS Cluster and M153

    Has anyone heard anything about Z210?

    I noticed ISOGG has it under investigation.
    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    I wrote to Thomas Krahn about Z210 a few weeks ago when it became apparent it is upstream of Z216 and not phylogenetically equivalent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww
    Thomas,

    Here is that information on Z210.

    The Geno 2.0 results for the individuals below show that Z210 is above Z216, whereas it the citizen-scientists formerly had it placed as downstream of Z220 and equivalent to Z216.

    Regards,
    Mike

    --- In [email protected], "mikewww7" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > I just ran through the same exercise as David C did.
    > I found theses Geno 2.0 results with Z210+
    >
    > N94262 Victoriano Perez/Peres Z210+, Z214-, Z216+, Z220+, Z274+, Z278+
    > N8661 Ramon Borquez Z210+, Z214+, Z220+, Z274+, Z278+
    > 211471 Unknown Z210+, Z216-, Z220+, Z274+
    > N50965 Joseph Trinquier Z209+, Z210+, Z214+, Z216+, Z220+, Z274+, Z278+
    > N2640 John Chalmers Z209+, Z210+, Z214-, Z216-, Z220+, Z274+, Z278-
    >
    > The highest level SNP that we know is below Z210 is Z216 because we see both
    Z216+ and Z216- folks above.
    >
    > Assuming that the draft by the citizen-scientists is correct at
    http://www.u152.org/images/stories/D..._Tree_v005.png
    > then Z210 is below Z220.
    >
    > Hence, Z210 is above Z216 and below Z220 and should be moved up the line
    halfway on the draft tree.
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R...t/message/5647


    The graphic is from Richard Rocca's web site and I think he created it.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-14-2013 at 01:29 PM.

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    I hadn't noticed that ISOGG had it under investigation (as of 19 March, and with a bunch of others in sequence). They still don't have L484 under investigation; but meanwhile, I'm investigating whether L484.NS is above, below, or separate from Z210... by waiting for a cousin's Geno 2.0 results, FTDNA #217955. He hadn't received them yet, as of May 10. I'll hear, when he does -- then his positive SNP results at least can be posted to his regular FTDNA account, but the raw data will need to be mined, for any negatives.

    I previously speculated elsewhere that the Z210 SNP might mark the event during which the GATA H4 value of people in the North/South cluster shifted from 11 to 10. In that case, our L484.NS bunch might not have a back mutation at GATA H4, but have the former value that mutated for most people at Z210, and has thus shifted the Z220 "modal," though it did not coincide with the Z220 SNP event itself. (This is pure speculation, at the moment. But a Z210- for kit #217955 would tend to support it.) Mike commented on this speculation, before I was able to log in here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ull=1#post5554

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I hadn't noticed that ISOGG had it under investigation (as of 19 March, and with a bunch of others in sequence). They still don't have L484 under investigation; but meanwhile, I'm investigating whether L484.NS is above, below, or separate from Z210... by waiting for a cousin's Geno 2.0 results, FTDNA #217955. He hadn't received them yet, as of May 10. I'll hear, when he does -- then his positive SNP results at least can be posted to his regular FTDNA account, but the raw data will need to be mined, for any negatives.

    I previously speculated elsewhere that the Z210 SNP might mark the event during which the GATA H4 value of people in the North/South cluster shifted from 11 to 10. In that case, our L484.NS bunch might not have a back mutation at GATA H4, but have the former value that mutated for most people at Z210, and has thus shifted the Z220 "modal," though it did not coincide with the Z220 SNP event itself. (This is pure speculation, at the moment. But a Z210- for kit #217955 would tend to support it.) Mike commented on this speculation, before I was able to log in here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ull=1#post5554
    If in fact that is what happened, regarding the GATA H4 scenario, then you have made a big discovery.

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    We should note the STR off-modal signature for what we are calling the North-South Cluster. The pattern of 437=14 448=18 GataH4=10 is off-modal for the father group, R1b-P312, which also (P312 that is) pretty much has the equivalent modal haplotype as the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH).

    So 437=14 448=18 GataH4=10 is a unique pattern that so far as done an excellent job of marking people who are Z209+ Z220+.

    The actual name "North-South Cluster" comes from Ken Nordtvedt, who discovered this group of people several years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by R1bP312WTY
    R1b-NS ("North/South") is a cluster first identified by Dr. Kenneth Nordtvedt in 2006, and was confirmed as P312+ in late 2008. It is typically identified by the following off-modal values: DYS437=14, DYS448=18, GATAH4=10, DYS392=13, DYS531=11, DYS388=12, DYS426=12, and DYS454=11.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-P312-WTY/

    392=13 531=11, 388=12 426=12 DYS454=11 are all the modal for P312 so the three that matter most are still 437=14 448=18 H4=10. We should note that 437=14 448=18 are very consistent but sometimes H4 seems to back-mutate to 11. A number of the M153+ people are H4=11 and we know that M153's brothers are cousins under Z220 as well as parts of M153 itself are H4=10 so we assume it is a back-mutation in M153 where it occurs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nordtvedt
    Someone today asked me about my variety R1b-NS (north/south). I had not looked at it in some time. It is quite robust; there being 84 haploytpes in SMGF database which is between one and two orders of magnitude more than one should expect statistically for independent markers.

    It looks like Atlantic R1b but for three changes; 14 at DYS437, 18 at DYS448, and 10 at H4 Atlantic R1b is 15,19,11 at these three markers. In the new FTDNA marker set it tends to have 12 at 406 rather than 10.

    This variety of R1b is spread robustly from Spain up to England, with decent amounts in between.

    I found lots of it in the Spain project, but not in the Galicia or Portugal projects. There is lots in the Mexico project.

    Which ancient peoples could have been responsible for this R1b variety?

    Is it regional in Spain as well as being sparse in the far west of the Iberian peninsula? Perhaps the administrators of the Spain project could extract the 14,18,10 R1b haplotypes to see if their places of origin in Spain form any kind of pattern?
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-09/1157164942

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    After some crunching assistance by David Carlisle I think it would be OK to say that my differently surnamed cousin's Geno 2 result appears to indicate that he is (and thus presumably I am, and the rest of the Z220+, L484.NS guys are) Z210+, Z295+ (that one is under ISOGG investigation) -- and according to NatGeo, his terminal SNP for Y-DNA is CTS4065. New one on me... I checked GBrowse and there's only been one positive test for it. I'd guess that's the anonymous (British?) sample tested by Chris Tyler-Smith, in which the SNP was discovered.

    The FTDNA kit for this cousin is #217955. His Geno 2 results aren't yet transferred to FTDNA, but will be very shortly. He's in the group currently called Jra in the R1b-P312 and Subclades project. That will be the default place to look at his upgraded list of SNPs: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/ (select Y-DNA Results, SNP, and Find: 217955).

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