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Thread: Z225 (DF27>Z225) - another early branch of DF27 with an Iberian connection

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    Z225 (DF27>Z225) - another early branch of DF27 with an Iberian connection

    Z225 could be an important early branching subclade of DF27. Not that many DF27+ Z196- have tested for for Z225 but it is already accumulating derived (positive) folks.

    Here is an updated from the R1b-P312 (Atlantic-r1b) project administrator.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Zenker
    z224, z225, z229 need to be removed from cloud since z225 is already boxed under DF27; Z229 is on same level, and usually paired with Z225, and Z224 is under Z225/Z229. All of them, z224, z225 and z229 are
    available to order from FTDNA.

    In the box for z225, if you can fit z225/z229, it would be more correct since that is how Rich Rocca designated them in his work, and they often have been tested as a pair following Rocca's designation.
    http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/gro...t/message/4404

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    Here are the early Z225+ people in our DNA projects. I guess we should not overlook that a German is in the group.... and of course our obligatory Isles person or two.

    fN94556 Garrido Z225+ Z229+ d225- uas Spain
    fN5479 Llana Z225+ Z229+ d225- uas Spain, Asturias, Pravia
    fN18213 Viverna Z225+ d225- uas France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Abos
    f187084 Caspary Z225+ d225-2430 Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Frankfurt-EcKenh
    f95673 Austin Z225+ d225-9910 England
    f110924 Clark Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 UK
    fN10566 Oliver Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 UK
    f227823 zzzUnk(Oliver) Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 zzzUnkOrigin
    f221362 zzzUnknown Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 zzzUnkOrigin

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    I tested positive for S19862 at Britain'sDNA and, if I understood the forums correctly, that means I'm Z225 as well...
    The bad news is I'm adopted so I have zero information about my ancestry =( but I know I was born in South America 37 years ago (Peru, Chile or Argentina)

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    On another thread I just replied to your comment, with what amounts to a response also to this one. Rather than rewriting that, I'll just paste in the link:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post47514

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    A fourth named subclade of Z225 called Y16018 has been added to the Big Tree today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Davis View Post
    A fourth named subclade of Z225 called Y16018 has been added to the Big Tree today.
    That one is called by the new DF27 SNP pack, so after hits from that pack started showing up (about Dec. 15) those who have tested positive for it in their BigY results are also seeing it display in green as their new "terminal" SNP.

    One of the Y16018 guys whose paternal ancestry has been German, and then American, since about 1400 has been emailing me with questions about reconciliation of what one sees (in the project) with what little there is available about Z225 online. Most such references appear to begin with a statement that this is an Iberian branch of DF27. That's debatable, but hasn't much been debated. I think when Z225 was discovered, four or five years ago, the only known examples were anonymous ones in the 1000 Genomes project whose bearers had Iberian ancestry.

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    Kit 307469 of Poland is Z225+ . Unfortunately, he has not ordered the DF27 SNP Pack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    That one is called by the new DF27 SNP pack, so after hits from that pack started showing up (about Dec. 15) those who have tested positive for it in their BigY results are also seeing it display in green as their new "terminal" SNP.

    One of the Y16018 guys whose paternal ancestry has been German, and then American, since about 1400 has been emailing me with questions about reconciliation of what one sees (in the project) with what little there is available about Z225 online. Most such references appear to begin with a statement that this is an Iberian branch of DF27. That's debatable, but hasn't much been debated. I think when Z225 was discovered, four or five years ago, the only known examples were anonymous ones in the 1000 Genomes project whose bearers had Iberian ancestry.
    Yes, much of the older online material, based on a miniscule sample size, is misleading regarding haplogroup origins. This is a recurring tendency of analysts, for sure. L1066 of Z253 suffered a similar fate. The first couple discovered happened to be Iberians from the 1000 Genomes Project, and the haplogroup has never since been able to shake the "continental" label, in spite of dozens of subsequent Irish and British samples which put the distribution on par with all its sibling haplogroups.

    Z225 looks much more Iberian than L1006, but likely the same scenario is playing out. The early samples were not representative of the whole population. I've observed a perverse contrarian tendency among some analysts to latch onto any solitary non British Isles sample and say that "such and such is a XXX (Iberian, Norman, Viking, etc.) haplogroup", while simultaneously insisting of the dozens of British and Irish samples, "modern distribution is not an indication of origin" - as if the British Isles had a one way door through which haplogroups may enter, but none may ever leave.

    To me, Z225 looks . . . European. Noncommittal perhaps, but at least accurate and not misleading. Yes, Z225 has "an Iberian connection". It also has German, Irish, English, Welsh, French, Polish, and Iraqi connections.
    Last edited by miiser; 01-06-2016 at 11:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miiser View Post
    Yes, much of the older online material, based on a miniscule sample size, is misleading regarding haplogroup origins. This is a recurring tendency of analysts, for sure. L1066 of Z253 suffered a similar fate. The first couple discovered happened to be Iberians from the 1000 Genomes Project, and the haplogroup has never since been able to shake the "continental" label, in spite of dozens of subsequent Irish and British samples which put the distribution on par with all its sibling haplogroups.

    Z225 looks much more Iberian than L1006, but likely the same scenario is playing out. The early samples were not representative of the whole population. I've observed a perverse contrarian tendency among some analysts to latch onto any solitary non British Isles sample and say that "such and such is a XXX (Iberian, Norman, Viking, etc.) haplogroup", while simultaneously insisting of the dozens of British and Irish samples, "modern distribution is not an indication of origin" - as if the British Isles had a one way door through which haplogroups may enter, but none may ever leave.

    To me, Z225 looks . . . European. Noncommittal perhaps, but at least accurate and not misleading. Yes, Z225 has "an Iberian connection". It also has German, Irish, English, Welsh, French, Polish, and Iraqi connections.
    Exactly. Everyone has a tendency to point out the testing bias between people of British ancestry versus people of Spanish ancestry as 10 to 1. One, I think this is a bit exaggerated, and no one ever produces the proof that it is 10 to 1. I would argue that the testing bias between people of British ancestry versus northern/European ancestry, including Germany is often ignored, when the bias is probably just as disparaging, and if we had more testing in Northern/Eastern Europe, we might see an vast increase in DF27, L21, and U152 results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Exactly. Everyone has a tendency to point out the testing bias between people of British ancestry versus people of Spanish ancestry as 10 to 1. One, I think this is a bit exaggerated, and no one ever produces the proof that it is 10 to 1. I would argue that the testing bias between people of British ancestry versus northern/European ancestry, including Germany is often ignored, when the bias is probably just as disparaging, and if we had more testing in Northern/Eastern Europe, we might see an vast increase in DF27, L21, and U152 results.
    Agreed. It's difficult but I try not to associate an STR Signature or a SNP identified branch with a geography, at least in the labeling. A classic case has been brought on this thread. One haplotype modal was discovered and named Irish IV but quickly changed to Irish IV/Continental. Where did it come from and where is it most populous? Testing biases get in the way. Hence, in spreadsheets I end up with boring neutral names like 253-IT4. I see Alex is using IT3 for L226 now on the Big Tree. Of course, that's Irish Type III and the admins will call it Dalcassian some times.

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