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Thread: Z225 (DF27>Z225) - another early branch of DF27 with an Iberian connection

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    I'm really looking forward to the day that Y-DNA testing is as popular in both Spain and Portugal as it is in the U.S.
    I have this result:
    R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ39 > Z229

    My paternal side is Portuguese and the last record is from 1654-12-21 from Tomé Fernandes, son of Domingos Ramos and Maria Fernandes. They were born in the center-north of Portugal, in Moimenta da Beira, Viseu district.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kafky View Post
    I have this result:
    R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ39 > Z229

    My paternal side is Portuguese and the last record is from 1654-12-21 from Tomé Fernandes, son of Domingos Ramos and Maria Fernandes. They were born in the center-north of Portugal, in Moimenta da Beira, Viseu district.
    Hello kafky. Did you test individual snp's or did you do a BigY500 or BigY700?

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Hello kafky. Did you test individual snp's or did you do a BigY500 or BigY700?
    I did WGS 30X on Dante Labs.

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kafky View Post
    I have this result:
    R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ39 > Z229

    My paternal side is Portuguese and the last record is from 1654-12-21 from Tomé Fernandes, son of Domingos Ramos and Maria Fernandes. They were born in the center-north of Portugal, in Moimenta da Beira, Viseu district.
    Hello Kafky,

    It is always nice to meet a new cousin.

    In my opinion a statement like "Z225 has an Iberian connection" is a bit like saying "Oktoberfest is somehow related to beer".


    First a link to Z225 in Alex Williamson's tree that gives a clear picture of the modern distribution so far. It is worthy to mention that Iberian samples compared to "anglo" ones are totally underrepresented and French are almost nonexistent. Despite this bias, the dominance of Iberian samples in this branch is evident.

    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=190

    The few non-Iberian outliers in this branch seem to have split from their Iberian cousins around 1500 BC. My opinion based on what we know so far is that most likely these outliers also have the same "Iberian" origin (and I include in this definition of Iberia not only the Iberian peninsula but also that narrow gap in France north of the Pyrenees that shows up in DF27 heat maps). I think Z225 reached the British Isles departing from Spanish and /or French southern Atlantic coast and NOT the North Sea as their distant cousins L21 did.

    We Z225 carriers are lucky that we also have a bronze age sample found in Iberia (https://goo.gl/maps/hkZQLie1gcHxeoLU9) dated 1867–1616 BC. Oldest so far and very close to the median for the estimated age of Z225 (2000 BC) again inside that hot area centered in the basque country that spreads both sides of the Pyrenees where the highest proportion of DF27 is still found today.
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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Hello Kafky,

    It is always nice to meet a new cousin.

    In my opinion a statement like "Z225 has an Iberian connection" is a bit like saying "Oktoberfest is somehow related to beer".


    First a link to Z225 in Alex Williamson's tree that gives a clear picture of the modern distribution so far. It is worthy to mention that Iberian samples compared to "anglo" ones are totally underrepresented and French are almost nonexistent. Despite this bias, the dominance of Iberian samples in this branch is evident.

    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=190

    The few non-Iberian outliers in this branch seem to have split from their Iberian cousins around 1500 BC. My opinion based on what we know so far is that most likely these outliers also have the same "Iberian" origin (and I include in this definition of Iberia not only the Iberian peninsula but also that narrow gap in France north of the Pyrenees that shows up in DF27 heat maps). I think Z225 reached the British Isles departing from Spanish and /or French southern Atlantic coast and NOT the North Sea as their distant cousins L21 did.

    We Z225 carriers are lucky that we also have a bronze age sample found in Iberia (https://goo.gl/maps/hkZQLie1gcHxeoLU9) dated 1867–1616 BC. Oldest so far and very close to the median for the estimated age of Z225 (2000 BC) again inside that hot area centered in the basque country that spreads both sides of the Pyrenees where the highest proportion of DF27 is still found today.


    Thanks Shadogowah for your reflections. I am still looking to define the sub-branch on the Z229 and I hope it may clarify a bit more on this big family of DF27, between West european countries. When I get more info, I will be pleased to share here.

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    ... that hot area centered in the basque country that spreads both sides of the Pyrenees where the highest proportion of DF27 is still found today.
    It is a "hot spot" because of its modern distribution. Only. And that took a few thousand years of locally successful reproduction, to develop to its present abundant state (where it now appears most abundant).

    We don't know that DF27, let alone Z225, was dense in that area in the Bronze Age; nor that it wasn't more dense in other areas, then. We do know that a Z225 guy got to Iberia fairly early, and has been found. Very probably, that's no coincidence. But beyond that, the assumptions are looking at an apple and seeing an orchard.

  11. #37
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    According to a post by Rocca "Harvard is working on a new capture that includes better coverage in the areas of DF27 and U152. Right now, the coverage for the former is very limited and impossible for the latter." so hopefully they will retest the P312 Bronze Age specimens already tested and in the future get more Bronze Age specimens. Of course that won't be a true representation of the distribution of DF27 in the Bronze Age but it should provide a general idea and that will be all we can hope for. Personally I don't see a larger percentage of DF27 north or east of France showing up in the Bronze Age. I see DF27 more as a haplogroup that first appeared in the Steppe or in Germany but didn't create a sink or hotspot until reaching France or Spain.

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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Personally I don't see a larger percentage of DF27 north or east of France showing up in the Bronze Age.
    I sort of do, but maybe only in the sense that one is larger than zero; or more likely, 1% is larger than 0%. As your quotation from Rocca suggests, the technology for finding DF27 in aDNA exists, but it needs to be used before we can expect to find that evidence.

    I see DF27 more as a haplogroup that first appeared in the Steppe or in Germany but didn't create a sink or hotspot until reaching France or Spain.
    I don't really disagree. But the same is true of U152, L21, and U106 (and their respective parent and grandparent, brother and cousin SNPs, that most of the literature in this field doesn't yet discuss). They have gone their separate ways, and have flourished most obviously somewhere else -- from each other, and from their places of origin. But they are all off the same tree, and it probably wasn't rooted in Western Europe. So, finding/refining the when and where of the major branching will be a good trick, if we can pull it off. It is worth trying. I usually speak up when I notice statements implying that DF27 (in particular) has been sufficiently researched already. We have scratched the surface.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I sort of do, but maybe only in the sense that one is larger than zero; or more likely, 1% is larger than 0%.
    I doubt that samples such as P312+ specimen EHU002 2562–2306 cal BCE from El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León would show negative for DF27 if there were enough coverage. Same for specimens I6539 from 2500–2000 BCE and I5665 from 2280–1984 cal BCE. So it wouldn't be 0% in Spain. Too many of the other samples from Bronze Age Spain are positive for DF27 for those not to be DF27+.

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    As your quotation from Rocca suggests, the technology for finding DF27 in aDNA exists, but it needs to be used before we can expect to find that evidence.
    Of course, that is why I mentioned it.

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I don't really disagree. But the same is true of U152, L21, and U106 (and their respective parent and grandparent, brother and cousin SNPs, that most of the literature in this field doesn't yet discuss). They have gone their separate ways, and have flourished most obviously somewhere else -- from each other, and from their places of origin. But they are all off the same tree, and it probably wasn't rooted in Western Europe. So, finding/refining the when and where of the major branching will be a good trick, if we can pull it off. It is worth trying.
    Yes, it should be attempted. We can't say something doesn't exist somewhere at a significant rate without successful reads.

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I usually speak up when I notice statements implying that DF27 (in particular) has been sufficiently researched already. We have scratched the surface.
    Apart from the fact that there is more to do there is still a limit on what can be done. There is a limited number of ancient specimens and technology has a limit as to successfully getting reads on ancient DNA. So once all of the remaining specimens have been tested or retested with newer technology we will have to rely on what is available. The number of DF27+ Bronze Age specimens in Olalde et al. 2019 is a pretty good idea that it flourished shortly after it arrived and it's arrival is likely as soon as Steppe DNA arrived in Spain and it had to go through France to get there. Several of the German Bell Beaker specimens with successful reads of L2 showed positive for that SNP so already they aren't DF27. It already looks like DF27 will barely show up outside of France, Spain, and Portugal in the Bronze Age. Any more recent period will most likely show France and Spain to have the most DF27 just based on the other ancient specimens from the Iron Age that have appeared in studies. Even the DF27 Crusader sample from Lebanon shows to have Iberian DNA.

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  16. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    It already looks like DF27 will barely show up outside of France, Spain, and Portugal in the Bronze Age.
    Right, the Bronze Age when it shows up in France, Spain and Portugal -- looking autosomally like the grandsons of saddle-sore guys who had just arrived from "the steppe," loosely speaking. And probably by a northern route. Maybe DF27 guys had only been 1% of the males, back in that steppe-like homeland -- from which we currently have no DF27-tested samples; but ipso facto, no statistics about their percentage in the Bronze Age steppe population.

    But any percentage larger than zero there, on the steppe or nearby (perhaps, a few waterfalls up the Dnieper), is enough. And it's also necessary -- because of all those Bronze Age L2 guys, their male-line cousins, in the vicinity of Prague. It's consistent with what we find tracing L21 backward from Ireland, U106 backward from Germany, U152 backward from Italy -- or Native Americans backward from the Americas. Big, ancient haplogroups tend not to have become most thoroughly proliferated (in today's tested populations) where their First Father originated.

    Anyway, my argument isn't and wasn't with Armando, who is well informed and careful what he says. It was about two words (that I highlighted, in boldface) in a clause about DF27, in a post by Shadogowah. There is some aDNA evidence that ancient Z225 is Iberian. But DF27, not really. DF27 guys got there anciently; but when they did, they looked like foreigners. We're just quibbling about what stamps were on their passports. That will be resolved, sometime, by better evidence. Probably not by better quibbling.

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